Where does the first jet engine come from?

[Abstract Mind]

Sorry. I was actually responding more to BigBoys' post. I'm still not really sure how to use the quote feature. I understood what you were saying and wasn't arguing with it.

[Bigboy]

might only mean we have a more tinker-oriented divinity

Maybe. But tinkering implies that God tweaks things "to see what happens". Shouldn't he already know!? So tinkering implies that he doesn't know and we're back to fallible again.

That is, we could simply assume the results of the cycle are predefined from beginning to end, and that the creation of the TU is part of that predestination.

So it's a bit of both - there is one huge LOOK AT MY BIG PLAN, but said plan requres, at certain key points, a nudge in the right direction. So we have tempered predestination without completely decimating free will.
I think the term "tinkering" threw me off base at the start.
Interesting - but I've never been a great fan of the God as Mover angle on the movie (as many are tired of hearing I'm sure!)

Abstract Mind - I was arguing the Grandfather paradox from the Scientist pov - I should have made it clearer.
However even with God as the Mover, I'm not entirely convinced that the TU engine shouldn't have evaporated in a puff of logic (when it leaves the TU and enters the PU) as it's causal origins unwind.

[Abstract Mind]

Maybe. I can't really debate too much further once we get too deep into the science behind time travel because I'm not too familiar with the theories. I understand the grandfather paradox on a very general level, but I don't fully comprehend it yet, since I've only casually browsed over it. I think it is intriguing though, so one of these days I'll look into it on a deeper level.

[Ayashae]

I'm new at this site, but I've been reading a lot in this forum during the last week, trying to find answers for some of the questions I've got about 'Donnie Darko'. I've found some good ones, but I've still got some important doubts about this topic, hope anyone can clear them for me, here I go:

-A corruption in the space-time fabric is occured, so a plane engine from the future goes through a wormhole to Donnie's bedroom in the PU, is that right? Or is the plane engine (falling from the future down to the PU) creating the corruption itself? After all, when the engine falls the 1st time, the result is the engine existing 'twice' in the primary universe, so it's an alteration which may create a tangent universe. But on the other hand, in the POTT, it literally says "Artifacts provide the first sign that a Tangent Universe has occurred", it seems that is a sign of a Tangent Universe, not the cause of it.

-Donnie is supposed to guide the artifact back to the PU so...if he sends the engine of a plane existing in the TU, doesn't that engine exists 'twice' in the primary universe again? Isn't it a corruption of space-time fabric? How can that solve the so called corruption created by the 1st engine?

Sorry if I'm asking something it's been already answered, there are thousands of posts in here, impossible to read them all!

Oh, and please excuse me if my english isnt clear enough, I'm not a native

Greetz!

[Bigboy]

Your English is great! A lot better than my Spanish Lol.

[PoTT] it literally says "Artifacts provide the first sign that a Tangent Universe has occurred", it seems that is a sign of a Tangent Universe, not the cause of it.

This is my interpretation too. One idea which I like is the idea that the Artifact is a copying error:
The corruption causes the Tangent Universe to come into being.
The Tangent Universe is an exact COPY of the Primary Universe, so there must have been a duplication process.
If this duplication process is not perfect, then an error could occur, like an extra object being created.
If the engine IS the result of such an error, then it fits the description in the PoTT (a direct symptom of the TU), and is an 'artifact' in a real sense of the word.

-Donnie is supposed to guide the artifact back to the PU so...if he sends the engine of a plane existing in the TU, doesn't that engine exists 'twice' in the primary universe again? Isn't it a corruption of space-time fabric? How can that solve the so called corruption created by the 1st engine?

Evidently we do end up with a duplicate in the PU, judging from the news articles and Phone conversation on the official site.

If we assume
A: Tangent Universes will tend to collapse safely on their own.
B: The presence of a 'duplicate' Artifact somehow prevents that natural collapse.
C: The engine is NOT the cause of the corruption.

then that explains why Donnie has to remove one of the engines from the TU, and also allows for duplicates to exist in the PU (we don't WANT that to collapse!!!)

[dred]

OK, here is my big question: I agree that Donnie is the Living Receiver, and the jet engine must go through him to send the metal object back to the real universe (I have only seen the original version thus far, but a cut scene shows the engine impaling Donnie.).

However, what has been achieved with sending a jet engine back in time....again? I mean, the first aberrancy was that a jet engine fell from nowhere in the first place.

So shouldn't Donnie, to set things right, have gone back in time himself and sent the original engine back to the FUTURE?

First, there are two engines unexplained now, and second, the engine is still in the wrong place, and NOTHING has been corrected.

Please tell me what I'm missing!

[Bigboy]

If the engine is travelling between universes - does 'back in time' have any meaning?
If you think of it like this - the Real [Primary] Universe 'stops' when the Tangent Universe comes into being, then 'resumes' upon the arrival of the artifact, then the engine has not travelled in time at all.
It's also important to note that the 'first' engine falls in the Tangent Universe - so whilst the two falling engines seem identical (suggesting a repeating event and time travel) they are infact distinct and separate events.

This being the case you have to conclude that the engine itself was NEVER the problem (in the larger sense). I recommend that you read play through the official site www.donniedarko.com and read the Philosophy of Time Travel (available on the DD site, but there are transcripts about if you google)

[Ayashae]

Hey Bigboy,

I always find your explanations simple and clarifying...we normally think in 'everyday's logic terms' and sometimes it's hard to understand a quantum physics speech! lol

But you always find the right words ;D congratulations

[Bigboy]

I'm glad you find my posts helpful.

(Mum always said i should have been a teacher. lol.)

[Jin]

sorry if this is a stupid question. but the way i understand it so far, is that the dead frank is forcing people into events in the TU, (saving donnie, making him flood the school so he meets gretchen, making him burn the dudes house down so the teacher cant take the kids to California, [which i dont really understand why the engine wouldn't fall on donnies house if the teacher took the kids instead of his mum]) and in turn of these events, donnie goes back in time and lets himself die so that the tangent universe never comes into being and so the universe wont be destroyed.

Soooo, heres the question that probably just stupid... Why the hell would frank make donnie get out of bed in the first place, kuz if he hadn't have got out of bed, he would have died anyway, and frank wouldnt have to force him into such events?

if i was frank, i wouldn't have told him to get of of bed in the first place. in that case, donnie would have died and the tangent universe wouldn't have started. hey ho, problem solved.

i've only watch the film twice and red an overview of 'the philosophy of time travel' so please someone tell me if im wrong about this.

p.s i'm blonde so im aloud to be stupid

[JR]

Completely unrelated to this topic but yes.

What is the deal with Cherita Chan? At the end when Donnie says something along the lines of 'I promise someday everything will be better for you' to her...what does this mean??? I cant think of any reason why Donnie sacrificial act would benefit her life in any way?

[swfc12]

Notice that when he sees franks hes always dreaming or sleepwalking. So frank is elizabeth's boyfriend. So at the end we see frank with the bunny costume and the bunny drawings so at the start donnie must know that his sister's boyfriend is drawing all these pictures. Maybe theres a connection there.

[DDarko]

bigboy said:

One idea which I like is the idea that the Artifact is a copying error:
The corruption causes the Tangent Universe to come into being.
The Tangent Universe is an exact COPY of the Primary Universe, so there must have been a duplication process.
If this duplication process is not perfect, then an error could occur, like an extra object being created.
If the engine IS the result of such an error, then it fits the description in the PoTT (a direct symptom of the TU), and is an 'artifact' in a real sense of the word.

Just curious to
A: your explanation of the cause of the corruption
B: your explanation of the origin of the jet engine.
By origin I don't mean what plane or some kind of that, but where the engine did come from, a wormhole for example.

Thanks.

[Bigboy]

A: I prefer the "Future Scientists" scenario which posits that some unknown and advanced experimentors are experimenting with spacetime (perhaps time travel, artificial wormholes, warp drives, whatever), and somehow damage a portion of spacetime with those experiments.

(Though long time members here will know I have alittle side project which is taking forever - in THAT scenario the corruption is a result of a 'Beam' being damaged by 'Breakers' - if you're a fan of Stephen King's Dark Tower you'll get the reference!)

B: I don't really know how to expand on what I've written. When something is copied it's never perfect (you must have used a photocopier at some point - you get extra ink where there may have been some dirt or the copier door is lightly open or duplication where the copied document has moved during copying). I'm saying the the TU is a copy of the PU - when it was copied it was imperfect and that the imperfection manifested as the duplicated engine.

Hope that helps

[DDarko]

Satisfied with that. However, I prefer the theory mentioned by Gretchen at page 10 in this thread. Nevertheless funny to know actual scientists are trying to make miniscule black holes and even wormholes.