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Post by Phil on May 8, 2005 5:48:38 GMT -5
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Post by Madridarko on May 18, 2005 20:59:30 GMT -5
Adding to the comment BigBoy mentioned two posts ago...
If Donnie's mom and sis would have died in the TU, they should have appeared listed as Manipulated Dead, just like Gretch, but they only appear as Manipulated Living... thus, they did not die during the span of the TU...
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Post by Madridarko on May 18, 2005 21:02:12 GMT -5
Anyways, it is of Frank's (Manipulated Dead) interest for Donnie to find the gun because that way Donnie will shoot Frank (Manipulated Dead) and thus seal the Ensurance Trap.
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Post by Fizban on Jun 2, 2005 9:15:05 GMT -5
Why does Donnie's mom have to be on the plane?
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Post by gretchen on Jun 2, 2005 16:49:23 GMT -5
it's part of the ensurance trap. so that donnie will close the tu.
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Post by chonan on Aug 26, 2005 4:59:00 GMT -5
the engine comes from the PU. when it is deposited in the TU, that makes one extra engine in the TU. are you following? the TU is basically a short term replica of the PU. but now it has one extra item than the PU. rendering them unbalanced. the reason donnie needs to send the engine (or more specifically, it's TU replica) back into the PU is that the two universes must be balanced at the time the Tu collapses or else it will take the PU and all life with it. so now there is two engines in the PU isnt that bad? |
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Post by gretchen on Aug 26, 2005 8:59:33 GMT -5
nope. there aren't 2 engines in the PU.
there is 1 engine each in both universes.
the 1 from the PU drops into the TU = 2 engines in the TU
donnie sends the replica engine into the PU
this makes 1 replica engine in the PU, and one engine in the TU
balanced!
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Post by ProvidencePortal on Aug 26, 2005 9:04:20 GMT -5
so now there is two engines in the PU. isnt that bad? it's a good question. in this theory/read of the movie, returning the engine doesn't destabilize the PU, though according to the web site, it does create duplication there (see the bit about "identical serial numbers). i'm not sure there's an answer here -- certainly not an easy one. but for me, the most likely solution is that the TU and the PU simply operate differently. remember -- the TU isn't caused by the Artifact, but rather is heralded, or announced, by its appearance. The TU is there before the engine falls into it. and it's always unstable, extra engine or no. how I'm thinking now, returning the engine to the PU is more ceremonial than it is a physical need that rights a tangible wrong. it's more on the divine level -- the integral component in the LR cycle that ends the process and unwindes the TU. |
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Post by Abstract Mind on Sept 15, 2005 1:35:20 GMT -5
At the end of the movie, there are two engines, duplicates at that, in the PU (at least that is what the website would have us believe). But, that still could make sense, especially if we believe this zipper theory that somebody brought up.
Also, I doubt the first engine came from nowhere. After all, the book that seems to solve the problem probably isn't called the "Philosophy of TIME TRAVEL" for no reason.
Here's a theory of mine that seems to work.
October 2 PU: There is a plane with an engine. We'll call that engine E1 and the plane P1. E1 is about to go on a journey.
October 30 PU: E1 detatches from P1 and enters into a tangent universe (which it probably caused).
October 2 TU: E1 falls on Donnie's house. Now, a copy of P1 exists on October 2 in the TU just as it had in the PU. We'll call it P2. It has engines of it's own, one of which is an exact duplicate of E1. We'll call it E2. Both of these engines now exist in the TU at the same time.
October 30 TU: Donnie causes E2 to detatch from P2, which his mother is on, causing it to fall through the worm hole back in time and into the PU. E1 is left behind in the TU.
October 2 PU: E2 falls on Donnie, killing him. E1, though it had been left behind in the TU to be erased, still exists in the PU, attached to P1, since October 2 occurred before October 30, when it initially detatched. We now have duplicate engines again, which makes sense according to the website. Whereas in the TU, E1 was the artifact, in the PU, E2 is the artifact.
If the zipper theory is correct, which I think it is, then the TU is shut down when E2 is sent to October 2 in the PU. Yes, there is still an extra engine, but sending it back closes the zipper. Why? I don't know exactly, but keep this in mind...
When the TU opened, you had P2 fully intact, complete with E2, and E1 seemingly out of nowhere. By detatching E2 from P2, Donnie basically replicated what had happened in the PU in the TU. Did this undo it? Was this like a key, which opened the PU back up and closed the TU? Possibly. Even though there is an extra engine, that extra engine now exists in the real universe, where it is seen as divine.
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Post by Bigboy on Sept 15, 2005 19:07:35 GMT -5
It sounds to me like you are describing a single causal loop (occurs once but the cause comes after the effect):
PU Oct 30 : PU Engine -> TU Oct 2 [Initial transition]
TU Oct 30 : TU Engine -> PU Oct 2 [Second transition: Universe saved from oblivion]
We know, in this theory, that in order for the TU cycle to occur that the PU Oct 30 Engine event must occur.
We also know that the successful end to the TU Cycle will result in a mysterious engine crashing to the ground seemingly from nowhere.
Since we know that Donnie's house IS crushed by the engine , we must conclude that the PU Oct 30 event WILL occur even though the TU has already played out, completing the single causal loop.
This being so, AFTER PU Oct 30 there should only be 1 engine in the PU (the other having left to create the TU in the past).
Here's the catch : in the phone conversation at the end of the website, we hear about the exact comparison of the "mystery" (TU) engine to the engine of a plane still in service at the time of the call.
The call is logged as 4/23/91 - 32 months after the PU Oct 30 event should have occurred.
So perhaps the Philosophy of Time Travel dose not refer to time travel in this rigidly "classical" sense;
The phrase could refer to
A: the portals (wormholes) joining two points of spacetime - and the artifacts' traversal of them,
B: the more abstract sense of time travel from the point of view of the Living Receiver, or
C: it could even demonstrate the limit of understanding of the author (Sparrow), (who couldn't make the mental leap past B maybe...)
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Post by Abstract Mind on Sept 15, 2005 20:50:32 GMT -5
But what happened on October 30 in the PU the first time around doesn't necessarily have to happen on October 30 in the PU the second time around if it is a matter of divine intervention. It's like the end result is that time was rewound and the world was given a second chance. It's been said that maybe God or future scientists were messing with the fourth dimensional construct. If they knew that the results were not good, they could have caused the ensurance trap for Donnie knowing that he'd go back and die. Then, since they have effectively rewound time, they could simply not mess with the construct on October 30. They gave themselves (scientests), or he gave himself (God), a second chance.
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Post by Bigboy on Sept 16, 2005 12:35:32 GMT -5
Divine intervention would account for it I guess - but doesn't it acknowledge the falibility of the divine?
A - He/She/It screwed up in the first place / created a fundamentally flawed universe that results in the TU.
B - Has to rely on ghosts and a teenager with questionable mental health.
Shouldn't He simply be able to snap his fingers and make it all better?
I think somewhere here we are stumbling into a variation of the grandfather paradox. If the Mover (scientsts/god) rewinds time and prevents the TU from forming, then history wouldnt record it and the scientists would be none the wiser about the event and would have no reason to change thier actions.
Also we'd be left with a duplicate engine with no causal origin - so it should pop out of existence once the TU cycle is scrubbed from the timeline. But it doesn't.
It's also worth noting that time doesnt rewind for the scientists. No matter how many times they rewind time in the 1980s, they have already messed with the construct in the future, causing an event (TU) they have to fix. The fact that they messed up isn't affected by the rewind UNLESS Donnie's survival directly influences thier actions that lead to the 4d construct manipulations in the future. That's plausible, but there is no corroborating evidence for it...
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Post by ProvidencePortal on Sept 16, 2005 14:28:39 GMT -5
Divine intervention would account for it I guess - but doesn't it acknowledge the falibility of the divine? I've wondered about the LR cycle and that question, too. That a tear/repair process would happen with different results along the timeline later might only mean we have a more tinker-oriented divinity, rather than a stand-offish, LOOK AT MY BIG PLAN one. That is, we could simply assume the results of the cycle are predefined from beginning to end, and that the creation of the TU is part of that predestination. That could mean any providential reading between very distant involvement (the divine creates a universe within which lots of things can happen, but for which all things have been accounted for in a grand plan) to very close involvement (the divine creates the rift to provide Donnie an experience meant to transform him from fearful to enlightened). Either way, no true "failability" on the part of the divine. Just more or less willingness to play with us like action figures. |
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Post by Abstract Mind on Sept 16, 2005 15:04:27 GMT -5
Who says God doesn't play with us like action figures? Again, God is perfect. Nothing else is perfect. Humans are not perfect and our ideas of perfection are also not perfect. If God is the only perfect being, and if can not understand his perfection, who's to say what seems like an error isn't really a perfect action on his part?
Also, I understand what you mean about the grandfather problem in regards to the scientists; however, that would not be the case in terms of God. God exists outside of normal space-time; therefore, he can manipulate it in any way he wants.
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Post by ProvidencePortal on Sept 16, 2005 15:16:34 GMT -5
Who says God doesn't play with us like action figures ... who's to say what seems like an error isn't really a perfect action on his part? I'm a little confused here, as it sounds as though I may have been unclear. I'm saying maybe we are (in the mythos of the movie) manipulated very directly -- like action figures. And my entire post was supposing there is no mistake ... only steps in a bigger, perfect divine plan. Again, sorry if I miscontrued your post. Read as though you felt I (or someone else) was arguing those two things as wrong or impossible. |
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