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Post by lou on Sept 14, 2004 11:20:12 GMT -5
Just watched the movie........fantastic!
Can anybody tell me about the water connection in roberta sparrows book? is that why the tear happens in the sky? where the clouds are?full of rain?
Also, about frank feeling his eye....i think that if id just had a dream that felt really real and id had my eye shot out, id check to be sure!
also, you know when he and his friends are shooting bottles, and talking about grandma death, one of them says that someone should write her......is that an example of the living manipulating? to get her out of her loop? cos i was thinking that if she was a living receiver, then she is waiting for an artifact to be sent back to her - coz donny posts it from the TU.....coz she goes to check the mailbox in both the PU and TU.....but that cant be right, coz the letter is not metal. so does she get it in the PU or TU???
and why didnt he just take the letter when he went there on the night?
my god - i think im thinking about this too much....its doing my head in!
just re-reading the above and it makes no sense whatsoever.......except in my head! i think i just wanted to join in!!!!! sorry if ive wasted your time......im sure "gretchen" will come on and tell me off!! ;D
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Post by lou on Sept 14, 2004 11:30:03 GMT -5
p.s.......i spelt donnie as donny to wind her up!
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Post by gretchen on Sept 14, 2004 16:02:54 GMT -5
lol. any other day lou, and i just might. today however i am not feeling well and quite FRANKly, i can barely even register what i'm reading so my responses will be limited. perhaps tomorrow. Did she replace the artifact (like Donnie putting the engine back) or she didn't and that's why she's in a loop? she HAS to replace the artifact, right. if she didn't, there'd be no future. she's in a 'loop' or whatever because she didn't accept her fate and chose not to die... lots of people believe this theory. i'm not dead set on it though... i mean it's definitely a possibility, and would explain a lot, it's definitely plausible. but perhaps she is just another ML. blahblahblah divine intervention, and all that crap leads us to believe as donnie does that time is predecided. 'god' would have known this was going to happen to donnie and knowing he would need a guide, 'god' made all the things happen to roberta sparrow which prompted her to write the book. perhaps? so much for a short answer.
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Post by Hellangel on Sept 20, 2004 10:14:02 GMT -5
Hi, i'm sorry for any error in the text - but i'm from germany and english is not my normal language.
1. Donnie can not travel back in time - if he would do - there would be 1 donnie in the garden and the other would die in the bed. that would not work, and if he died in bed - they had to find him when carrying out the engime.
so it is only possible the a) everything happens in donnies head / mind ? b) there are more universes.
2. one important question is about frank. he can only be a ghost or live in donnies mind. when he talks to donnie - he can' t be a real person , because the real one is dead by donnie in the future.
but if the frank is only a construct of donnies imagination, how can frank help him to survive ? they only logic way for me is - donnie only takes frank as a explanation of his disicions - when he survives he has sleepwalked and donnie says to himself "this was frank". a person in your head has not been in the future and can give you tipps.
if frank is a ghost, the ghost must be away from "earth" in the moment donnie dies - because he will not be killed by donnie in the future.
3. where came the engime from ? sciene says - mass can not be created and not be destroyed ( in german: Gesetz der gleicherhaltung der Masse : Masse kann weder Erschaffen noch Vernichtet werden). so if the engime does not come from the universe - the natural laws are false.
4. what is the meanig of the film ? what does he wnat to say?
in my way, the film wnat so show, how your or any others life influence the whole world. If Donnie survives, many people will die, j.c. will be in jail, ... 1 litte persons live has influence on so many things - maybe on the live of all ppl in the world - more for the people next to him, less fpr people far away.
5. the other symbols "cellar door", "grandma death" , usw usw
i only saw the film once ( many times will follow ) - so i didnt got behind many thing. but i think kelly had a plan for every scene, and non is sensless. but to see the whole things you will have to see the film scene by scene and discuss it with many people.
6. god and the thing
an other message of the film is god. i think it wants to say that god exists and donnie ( in his mind or real) sees that he is not alone before he dies. if he denies (?) gods plan with standing up from bed he would show the god can make faults or the his plans dont work.
that also says that kelly beliefs in fate (?) - the paths the people have to go etc....
7. omg what a film - there are many ways to think about - this forum could help me in getting the clue - but reading such a complex thing in english ( and think about at this time) is to much for me *G*
a realy greatthing to think about
thanx Hell
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Post by gretchen on Sept 20, 2004 10:54:37 GMT -5
i have to drive about 3 hours to PA but i'll take the time to answer at least one question...
frank as a ghost.
what you have said is true, but what many of us have come to believe is that frank is a messenger of god. a product of divine intervention. in this case, yes he can help donnie without donnie's understanding or knowledge. if frank were someone he made up himself, you're right it would just be donnie trying to understand his own actions. but as we see frank as the 'voice' or god, or a messenger of god, being MANIPULATED by god, he can infact direct donnie independently from donnie's own psyche.
you write english well, by the way, better than some native speakers! ;D
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Post by Hellangel on Sept 20, 2004 11:21:49 GMT -5
thancks for responding. i had english for 6 years in school and sometimes read eng. books ( like ken follet or LotR).
If Frank is sended by God, it really would be possible. If he knows the "Masterplan", he would know the whole future-
But then - is the "engime accident" something god hadnt planed, slip out of his fingers, a universal anomaly or sth. like that and tries to fix it through donnie ?
and as last question - what is really donnies part / action in this thing. wouldn't everything happen the same way without his influence ? and why is donnie the one who should bring the engime back and is the victim at the same time.
so far - i think ill watch the film later a second time. it seems that i've overseen many things yesterday.
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Post by gretchen on Sept 23, 2004 14:56:33 GMT -5
i think of the engine being as you say a universal anomaly. in the POTT it is stated that the wormholes can happen pretty much anywhere anytime for no reason at all. i believe the wormhole opened up, and sucked the engine through... and god, knowing what would happen intervened so that donnie could fix the rip in space time.
donnie is the living receiver, he has been the one chosen to return the artifact to the primary universe. now, what you are asking is under speculation around here... why was donnie chosen? what would happen if frank did not get him out of bed?
we can only assume, and guess, that a new living receiver would be chosen. because the artifact still needs to be returned to the primary universe or else the world will end.
donnie is chosen because it is his path. it is god's choice, and why god has chosen donnie we can't know. donnie is the victim because he chooses to die, and he chooses this because he knows he will not be alone when he dies, and life doesn't truly end when you die. he is at peace, he embraces his fate.
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Post by Mc on Oct 3, 2004 15:24:42 GMT -5
the reason frank gets donnie out of bed is that frank wants to keep existing(even if hes not alive), if donnie doesnt get out of bed he(donnie) dies and since frank is a product of donnie in some form, frank ceases to exist otherwise. I could be wrong but that makes sense to me.
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Post by cps on Oct 4, 2004 6:26:09 GMT -5
OK, new to all this, only seen the movie a couple of times, and read a few posts.
This is not a definitive view of the film, just my interpretation on it. I believe that films like this are made because there isn't a definitive reason or solution to it, it's up to the viewer to decide their own idea based upon what they see on screen. What a great idea for a movie, to keep people guessing and discussing solutions years after the film is realeased. I'm a massive fan of this kinda thing!
Anyway, I think that Donnie is dying, he's kinda seeing his life flash before his eyes, his past, future, present. Like in the twilight zone episode that's already been mentioned. The jet engine is completely ubsurd, but Donnie is asleep when he is killed, so wouldn't know what hit him. THe time travel thing - maybe he was into that kinda stuff as a kid, especially with the kinda artwork that surrounds him in his bedroom. Time travel seems linear and pre-determined, a beginning, an end. He's scared of dying alone and the 'dream' is one way of showing that he isn't alone. All the characters in the film could be described as manifestations of his psyche..I think. Grandma Death is a good example of this. She's what Donnie fears, dying alone and following the same path all the time, stuck in her old world, eternally lost and alone. Surely she's called Grandma Death for some reason. Frank could be another character like this, kinda like the grim reaper. Gives Donnie an exact time and date when His world is going to end. Frank also plays a school kid who's later killed by Donnie, maybe to explain the definitive of death - it's going to happen, but it's not going to end.
I could go on and try to explain the rest of the characters, but I've gotta watch the film some more. This is just an idea that I had. Why not? When we dream anything is possible, you can do anything, just like Frank states. Is this a lucid dream that Donnie has at the point in which he is going to die? When his world is going to end?
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Post by cps on Oct 4, 2004 6:51:12 GMT -5
Just hit me - alot of this stuff is also explained in the lyrics to the mad world tune
"All around me are familar faces.......bright and early for the daily races, going no where, going no where" - His take on the superfitial nature of modern day life. Emptyness, shallowness, routine, lost backward and forward (Grandma Death?) "Hide my head a wanna drown my sorrow, no tomorrow, no tomorrow" (inevitability of death after reflecting on you life - loneliness, emptiness, non-fullfillment?) "I find it kinda funny, I find it kinda sad, the dreams in which I'm dying are the best I've ever had" - And this is the chorus. Is Donnie dying? Reflecting on the elements of life, trying to work it out, maybe why he's laughing at the end and so confused for the whole film? "And I feel the way that every child should sit and listen, sit and listen" - Law and order to way of life, which is especially shown in Donnie's classes. They all seem to be about decisions in life. "Hello Teacher tell me what's my lesson? Looked right through me...." Kinda like the Love - Fear lessons, his teacher can't grasp the concept of how complicated that life is. Is this Donnie trying to explain to himself what the point of his time was about? That is not linear than Love and Fear or Beginning and an End? I think his thoughts on the are also summed up in the Sam Cunningham character. The rules and lessons he has been taught at school have been told to him as the deinitive way, the only way. His comments and arguments towards this way of thinking fall on deaf ears and he has been repremanded for it. Is Sam Cunningham turning out to be a peodophile a manifestation of Donnie thinking that the ideas he was being taught were corrupt, wrong, or too linear? This is also shown at the Sam Cunningham seminar - Donnie is the first person to question this and is again repremanded for it. I'll have to watch the film again, but I wonder if that's why the characters that are manifestations of Donnie's psyche are viewed the second time the jet engine crashes into his room. Maybe he has affected them in some way to show that he didn't die alone? He made a difference to people? Still kinda confused, any ideas?
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Post by laggerific on Oct 5, 2004 23:27:15 GMT -5
When donnie is stabbing at frank with the knife...what is the purpose of that? Is it only a plot device to give a possible explanation for why Franks eye is messed up in the theatre?
Was donnie having a sort of "memory" when he is stabbing at Franks eye? It does glow as he stabs it.
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Post by laggerific on Oct 5, 2004 23:51:16 GMT -5
Yes, that is correct... So you're sayingt hat Sparrow, was a Living Reciever at one time... Question... Did she replace the artifact (like Donnie putting the engine back) or she didn't and that's why she's in a loop? Does that mean they are living in an unstable Tangent? She's stuck in a "loop" doing what she needs to do...she is in essence waiting for her job to be done. This movie is very similar to Signs, just with a lot more subtlety in the religious references. I think the conversation with the professor about the path that god chose vs. the unstable path that we choose is a very pertinent discussion and is central to the function of the story. When you stop following gods path, the shit hits the fan. I'm not a religious person, but I find that interesting. But, Sparrow played a major part, both in writing the book, and also by being there to check the mail and constantly checking the mail and constantly getting in cars ways. So she was a part of the manipulated livings function in the tangent universe. Is there any significance in the year of the creation of The Philosophy of Time, which is in 44? or just a coincidence? And still yet, what is the significance of Sparrow pointing out that Gretchen was not her real name in the back of her book? Were those names written there in 44? They look like they were scrawled in at some point, but when, and by who?
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Post by rightfielder21 on Oct 6, 2004 5:18:51 GMT -5
When donnie is stabbing at frank with the knife...what is the purpose of that? Is it only a plot device to give a possible explanation for why Franks eye is messed up in the theatre? Was donnie having a sort of "memory" when he is stabbing at Franks eye? It does glow as he stabs it. Donnie is experimenting with the metal and water elements with the guidence of Frank.... Frank's eye was messed up, because Donnie shot him in the eye...
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Post by rightfielder21 on Oct 6, 2004 5:22:00 GMT -5
Does that mean they are living in an unstable Tangent? She's stuck in a "loop" doing what she needs to do...she is in essence waiting for her job to be done. This movie is very similar to Signs, just with a lot more subtlety in the religious references. I think the conversation with the professor about the path that god chose vs. the unstable path that we choose is a very pertinent discussion and is central to the function of the story. When you stop following gods path, the shit hits the fan. I'm not a religious person, but I find that interesting. But, Sparrow played a major part, both in writing the book, and also by being there to check the mail and constantly checking the mail and constantly getting in cars ways. So she was a part of the manipulated livings function in the tangent universe. Is there any significance in the year of the creation of The Philosophy of Time, which is in 44? or just a coincidence? And still yet, what is the significance of Sparrow pointing out that Gretchen was not her real name in the back of her book? Were those names written there in 44? They look like they were scrawled in at some point, but when, and by who? I agree with everything you said... The quote that you took of me was a question to another poster, not my view on the situation... As far as the main characters names being at the end of the PoTT... I doubt they were there during the movie... They were added in on the website, to give people a clear understanding of who is what...
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Post by ProvidencePortal on Oct 6, 2004 9:36:34 GMT -5
Does that mean they are living in an unstable Tangent? First, great post laggerific -- welcome. Let me offer some helpful context: the stuff about Sparrow having been an LR in the past is pure conjecture on the part of those of us trying to find answers to: 1) why she's there; and 2) why Donnie dies (possibly, chooses to die) at the end. The theory proposed by several of us (me included) is really not drawn from much more than bits and pieces of of the mythos: what if all LRs, after closing their tangents, are forced to make a decision at the end -- die in God's path or live outside it. In this theory, the choice is as much a part of the LR process as the Manipulated Living/Dead, the Artifact and all the rest. It's integral and inescapable ... you have to pick upon returning to your PU. The conjecture goes on to say: LRs who choose to live at the conclusion of their role may do so, but they are then saddled with some very undesirable consequences. We've considered the following to be possible ramifications of "bucking God's plan" at the end of the LR role: 1) given knowledge of when and how you'll die, without the power to alter it 2) become an integral piece in someone else's LR experience -- a Manipulated Living who's totally aware of what's happening, but again, unable to stop it 3) live in loops -- starts and stops that are the result of constant checking to see whether the LR process of which you've become a part has begun yet. 4) live wholly alienated from the people around you because of your eccentricities and bizarre behavior Sounds like a pretty crummy existence, no? I like this because it matches up with at least the behaviors we see from Grandma Death, and provides a compelling and reasoned (if not very well substantiated theory for why Donnie would choose to die in the end, when it otherwise appears he could have gotten out of bed and kept right on living.
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