is donnie a virgin when he dies

[ProvidencePortal]

Guest-Darko28064212 said:

The act of having your virginity defiled literally means to be penetrated in a sexual fashion.

I shouldn't have to do this, but ... let's only play at semantics when we know what we're talking about. The universally used and understood definition of virgin is "one who has not had sex." See also:

virgin vir·gin Pronunciation Key (vûrjn) n. A person who has not experienced sexual intercourse. [dictionary.com]

And while literal translation of the Greek seems silly (this is, after all, a derivation of the Greek mythologic figure Virgo, goddess of justice), even if it once did "literally" mean "not yet penetrated sexually" (making it gender-specific ... though I find no evidence of that in my Googling), its meaning has been different for thousands of years.

[gretchen]

i stg if i had the power i would lock this thread.

to answer everyone's question.

YES.

YES he is a virgin when he dies.

that's it!

cease and desist!

[josh]

oops

[Madridarko]

Ok, I thought this discussion thread had been cleared and closed already, as in it had been answered, disscussed, and concluded. I see no point in why somebody had to go around re-awaking it.

[ProvidencePortal]

Just when you thought the burial services were over for this thread, I unearth this interesting tidbit (from an article comparing the theatrical cut, the director's cut and the shooting script, found here: screenwriting.ugo.com/reviews/donniedark_review.php)

The second biggest change, and the change that hurts the most, however, are a couple of small moments with Gretchen closer to the end. It starts during Donnie's Watership Down rant (a deleted scene in the theatrical cut, reincorporated into the DC), but actually stretches on a bit longer, with Gretchen taking Donnie's comments to heart. She actually stop talking to him for a few days, more out of confusion than anger, until she shows up at Donnie's doorstep at the Halloween party. That part's changed on screen as well, since the two actually don't have sex that night in the script. They simply lay on the bed in silence, comforting each other. Both takes on that scene do work (the sex comes off in the film as Gretchen needing something more than a kiss to make the world seem beautiful again), although the script pretty much renders null and void the sometimes-discussed theory that Donnie gets Gretchen pregnant that night.

My emphasis, naturally. So, for what it's worth, here's one source at least that claims there's clear evidence Donnie and Gretchen don't have sex when the camera cuts away. And so, to extend the discussion, I took a peek at the shooting script. Here's that scene:

INT. MASTER BEDROOM - NEXT (11:15 P.M.)

Donnie and Gretchen sit on the bed. Gretchen takes a sip of beer.

GRETCHEN
Some people are just born with tragedy in
their blood.

He kisses her. He then pulls back.

GRETCHEN (cont'd)
What?

DONNIE
There's something you have to know,
Gretchen.
(beat)
Everything is going to be just fine.

They lie down together... silently listening to the party below.

The phone is ringing. The answering machine picks up.

... which is when Rose leaves her message. Clear as mud again, eh?

And by the way, Donnie gets Gretchen pregnant that night? I want to know what forum the author's been poking around in to hear that theory ...

[gretchen]

ProvidencePortal said:

And by the way, Donnie gets Gretchen pregnant that night?

now that's just crazy talk.

[greedy]

even if they didn't have sex it wouldn't matter when he travels back in time all physical things are UNdune so he is a virgin i'm glad this was a popular thread but it can't go on any longer let it die before we go into a TU of are own

[ProvidencePortal]

greedy said:

this was a popular thread but it can't go on any longer

I'm of the mind that, as long as people are interested in it, and they're bringing textual evidence to the conversation, a discussion can go on as long as it needs to.

And truthfully, I find "let it die" posts a little insulting. If you're uninterested in the conversation, it's a simple thing to not click on the thread.

[Phil]

But its already decided that he was.

So this thread should only keep going if someone finds some shocking evidence that suggests that donnie had actually had sex before he died!

[ProvidencePortal]

Phil said:

But its already decided that he was.

It didn't become "already decided" until this, the fifth page of the thread, when evidence was posted that concretely stated Donnie and Gretchen were not originally intended by Kelly to have sex in the party/bedroom scene. Until then (that is, through nearly 5.5 pages of posts), it was all of us guessing and conjecturing about how camera movements and innuendo should be interpreted.

That's why threads and conversations continue. And why people ought not take it upon themselves to decide a discussion has run its course. After all, it's not as though random gibbering is what's kept this one going -- it's been thoughtful and text-based analysis. If that analysis bores you, or you've reached your own steadfast conclusion ... well, why read this anyway?

[Phil]

It didnt bore me.

Im jsut saying that yes, this thread has got to 5 pages of good argument, but now we have what seems to be conclusive proof that he was a virgin when he died. So this thread can rest, unless someone finds new evidence that contradicts this conclusion.

[ProvidencePortal]

... and my point is, who in the world are you (or anyone) to state when a thread "can rest?" Certainly you see where I'm coming from: you wouldn't want me posting in a thread in which you're active, "OK, this has all been figured out, you can now stop talking about it." You'd wonder who the hell I thought I was, telling you the subject you're interested in is dead and buried. Right? I mean, in the course of a critical dialogue like ours, every opinion is the last one ... until the next one is posted.

I hear you that the current evidence on the table (that Donnie and Gretchen did not have sex) is the best there is right now. But my point is this: until it was posted on page 5, there were four pages before it that concluded it was very likely they had. What's to say someone, through more posting and analysis, won't switch the argument back the other way.

I appreciate guidelines and boundaries as much as anyone, so I do feel like you and I are at least on similar footing. I just hope to avoid the scenario where someone reads this thread, has some interesting thing to add, but see the posts saying "OK, enough is enough, stop posting here" and decide to do just that. The key is having something substantial to say, I agree ... I just want the door open for that substance to reach us.

[Phil]

ProvidencePortal said:

... and my point is, who in the world are you (or anyone) to state when a thread "can rest?" Certainly you see where I'm coming from: you wouldn't want me posting in a thread in which you're active, "OK, this has all been figured out, you can now stop talking about it."

I that instance id respect your opinion, fair enough.

ProvidencePortal said:

But my point is this: until it was posted on page 5, there were four pages before it that concluded it was very likely they had. What's to say someone, through more posting and analysis, won't switch the argument back the other way.

Well thats what im saying, we can recognise that at the moment we can pretty much be sure that he was a vigin, but if someone had some new idea about it then i would welcome that, as everyones opinion is valid, and as we already now, this film is very open to your own interpretaion.

ProvidencePortal said:

I appreciate guidelines and boundaries as much as anyone, so I do feel like you and I are at least on similar footing.
The key is having something substantial to say, I agree ... I just want the door open for that substance to reach us.

Fair enough, i agree, like i said, if someone does find something new on this topic then they can post away.
tbh, i dont know what we're arguing about, because we both has the same opinion i think.

[gretchen]

reow!

donnie's a virgin.

end of discussion.

regardless of whether kelly intended them to have sex or not (which he didn't, only solidifying that donnie is a virgin), all events of the TU are "reversed" and he would be a virgin anyway.

[ProvidencePortal]

gretchen said:

end of discussion.

Of all people, I'm surprised you would talk with such definitiveness. You've always been the champion of, "Darko is open to interpretation -- what the board agrees to doesn't make it fact."

One thing I promise: I will never, ever again discuss whether we are to believe Donnie and Gretchen had sex the night of the party.