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Post by greedy on Apr 30, 2005 13:20:56 GMT -5
i personally always thought his living was a part of what created the tangent universe leaveing your path but this brings in the religuos asspect which i have refuted severale time i guess i'm going to have to do some meditation and figure out what i really think about this movie i apologizes for my rude comment fdgks
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Post by Silent Socom on May 4, 2005 3:10:35 GMT -5
I personally don't think it has anything to do with saving anything. He saw the pain he would go through and he thought death would be easier to handle. Imagine, would you perfer to watch your girlfriend die, because you screwed up....or would u perfer dieing. I'd take the latter.
Chris
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Post by Omnipotent on May 4, 2005 7:35:23 GMT -5
I personally don't think it has anything to do with saving anything. He saw the pain he would go through and he thought death would be easier to handle. Imagine, would you perfer to watch your girlfriend die, because you screwed up....or would u perfer dieing. I'd take the latter. Chris There are two universes displayed in the film. The Primary Universe (real life) and the Tangent Universe (like a parallel universe). When the fourth dimension of time is broken, a Tangent Universe occurs and is unstable. Hence the world ending in 28 days time. If the Tangent Universe ends, then the world ends. Donnie closes the Tangent Universe and prevents the world being swallowed up in a black hole at the end. He is then back in the Primary Universe, which doesn't necessarily mean Gretchen would die again. The thing is Donnie wouldn't have known her back in the primary universe like he did in the Tangent but her death plays no part in him choosing to die. |
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Post by greedy on May 4, 2005 12:00:00 GMT -5
ok we established that the physical effects from the TU do not carry into the PU but i thought the mental effects did not to mention when he made the decision to close the TU he was in the TU so theoreticaly gretchens death is still fresh in his mind
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Post by JohnGalt on May 5, 2005 19:53:59 GMT -5
I believe that Donnie's Suicide wasn't for enlightenment.
If you are Christian then you believe that Christ died for us all. I believe that Donnie is false prophet. The Philosophy of Time Travel is a manifestation of God's plan. It says there will be a living reciever, there will be manipulated dead, there will be an artifact, and the living reciever will save the world(which seems to be the Will of God). Donnie defies gods plan by time traveling back in time to when the TU begins inorder to die. This loop hole allows Darko's death to corrupt God's plan because now there is no one with the powers to resolve the TU. This will cause the TU to spin out of control and destroy the Universe. The discovery of God's Plan(Predestination) causes Darko, who is a proponent of Free Will, to want to destroy His plan. The discovery of this loop hole and it's exploitation justifies Donnie's Laughter at the end of the story. He laughs because; he has just exercised free will instead God's will, premoted chaos and destruction.
We experience this the events of this movie primarly through Darko's POV. There are alot of people out there who claim that Donnie is somekind of Saint, Savior, Jesus Christ figure ETC. The Dark is often associated with evil. If he was a Savior shouldn't his name have been Donnie Lighto? Why Does everyone insist that he is Good? What actions, committed by Donnie, can be concidered "GOOD" by any set of religous morals? Could it be his "Past Actions" the ones that prompted his parents to send him to a shrink? Could it be the way he swears at his mother or sister? Could his distruction of the school be interpreted as a "Good Action" His habitual masterbation to the image of Christina Applegate doesn't align with any religous morals that I'm aware of. Neither does Premarital sex. Murdering Frank Prolly isnt exactly Kosher. Let's see are there any Commandments that we havent covered yet??
What about the Burning of Jim Cunningham's House? Was that acctually "Good"? Donnie Lashed out at someone who he didn't like.....not very Christian....But you are going to say. "But they broke up a child porn ring as a result of the fire" What if Jim Cunningham didn't own the porn? In today's society such sins are almost expected of our clergy type figures....he must be guilty. What if Donnie , between scenes, planted the porn in JC's Study, and used his powers (or even just move a bookcase infront of the door leading to the study) to make the room to appear "secret".
Jim Cunningham is an interesting character....He happens to be a religous leader who has created a new religion and philosophy of life that seems to Darko to be against Human Nature. I believe that we see Jim as being rediculus because this is Darko's story. It could be argued that the devil would find the teachings of Jesus Christ (another JC) to be just as rediculus and against Human Nature. The teachings of Christ infer that it is Bad to hold a grudge...when it is human nature to remember. Jesus taught you should think and help others befor yourself. But human nature...fight or flight/self preservation is built in. Lust occurs in all of us even though we do not talk about it. A Philosopher once said..."'The last Christian died on the cross.' Implying that the only one that could live up to christian morals was Christ. Now look through the eyes of say....Al Pacino character in Devils Adovocate. Al's character's view of God and Jesus parallels that of Darko towards Jim in this movie.....remember the whole look but dont touch, touch but dont taste, taste but dont swallow... God is a sadist speech?
Purhaps this movie is about the battle between Good and Evil. Donnie is corrupted at the beginning of the movie. Throughout the movie God and the Devil are Battling for his Soul unbeknownst to Darko. Donnie discovers that he does not have Free will and is following God's plan. This discovery is re-enforced when he kills Frank. So Darko decides to rebel against Gods Plan, Just like he was rebelled against everything in his life, by traveling back in time and refusing to be Gods puppet by choosing death. This explains why Frank is not in his house the second time when the engine falls through the house. By committing suicide...he does not get a chance to murder frank....so there is no manipulated spirit to guide him.
Lucifer challenged God's leadership, rebelled against God's Plan. Darko does the same in this movie.
I think people refuse to see Donnie as evil because the "Dark(o)" side of all of us identifies with him. We all experience hate, urges for revenge, lust, need to rebel etc. We identify with this Immoral, but charismatic character, Since we se ourselves in him, he must be good.
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Post by Bigboy on May 5, 2005 21:42:56 GMT -5
Interesting stuff - even though I can't agree with any of it.
Only by those who are afraid of it.
If you take this story as one of revelation/illumination/enlightenment then Donnie is very much 'in the dark' until towards the end of the movie, so his name fits pretty well.
Isn't this self contradictory? He discovers that he has no free will, so how can he then use free will to defy the plan by going back in time?
Well that depends on the role you assign to Frank. If the PoTT is a 'manefestation of Gods plan' as you say, the Frank is a part of that plan, and by extension a force for good. Since Frank told Donnie to flood the school and burn the house how can you not see those actions as good?
As for Franks murder - it occurrs within the TU (and is necessary for Frank to guide Donnie, so acording to your view of the PoTT must be the will of God)
In the PU Frank is alive and well.
Actually, if Donnie discovers that there is no free will, can anyone be held resposible for thier (predestined) actions? Can any morality have meaning in a totally fatalistic world?
A final point here is that Donnie is not Christian, so would be very unlikely to follow the Catholic tenets you have highlighted. (I mean who here, Christian or not, hasn't ever sworn at thier parents, spoken out against something they disagree with, or had a sly fiddle?)
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Post by JohnGalt on May 6, 2005 7:57:25 GMT -5
When donnie discovers the his immediate "predestination" he gains a small window that allows him a chance at free will.
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Post by JohnGalt on May 6, 2005 7:59:03 GMT -5
Did "Frank" acctually tell Donnie to do those things??? or does the viewer just assume that Frank tells him to?
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Post by JohnGalt on May 6, 2005 8:11:39 GMT -5
A final point here is that Donnie is not Christian, so would be very unlikely to follow the Catholic tenets you have highlighted. (I mean who here, Christian or not, hasn't ever sworn at thier parents, spoken out against something they disagree with, or had a sly fiddle?)
But we dont murder, commit arson, or destroy schools...
Many people claim that Donnie is a JC figure in this movie?? I highly doubt A JC figure would commit the before mentioned acts.
Other people have claimed that donnie is a self sacrificing Savior....this is hard for me to swallow...Donnie seems to be Extremely self centered and definately NOT altruistic
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Post by Bigboy on May 6, 2005 9:44:37 GMT -5
Still seems a little forced to me - evan a tiny window of opportunity would disprove total predestination - rendering rebellion pointless.
Frank telling donnie to 'burn it to the ground' in the cinema is pretty undeniable.
I did address those events in my post above^^.
If Donnie only gets a tiny window of opportunity to apply free will, how can he be blamed for events he has no control over?
I don't think so either in a religious sense (I lean more towards the hard sci-fi interpretations).
I don't believe that he had to die - so the "self sacrifice to save the world" becomes moot (from my point of view).
I don't know about that... From a utilitarian point of view the choice between the death of one, and the death of all, is a simple one.
If Jesus himself were in the position to make that choice (and couldn't choose himself to die) do you think he would sacrifice all life to keep his hands clean? That strikes me as a selfish choice...
Well he is human, and moreover a teenage boy - so is that surprising? It hardly makes him evil. If he were totally altruistic, would the 'ensurance trap' as set out in the PoTT be necessary?
I'm sorry if I come across as combative - that's not my intention. It's just that, whilst I like the idea of turning the popular view on it's head, I just can't make it all fit.
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Canuckfcuk
New Member
'Frankarella, psychadella, there's a kinda cocoa shell about you, Frankarella, Frank, Frankarella'
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Post by Canuckfcuk on May 6, 2005 13:16:49 GMT -5
Well, if you had just gone through what Donnie did, and had memory of it (as Donnie did remember what happened), could you go on living? Not that you would be totally depressed or anything; but your level of consciousness and 'enlightenment', 'spirituality', etc, etc, (all that good stuff), would be too high, too powerful for this world. I mean, what else could you possibly do?
I don't know if the director intended it to be that vague, but the vagueness of it forces you to put your own feelings to it, and thus answering the question: What would you do?
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Post by Bigboy on May 6, 2005 13:33:00 GMT -5
I would have gotten the hell out of Dodge, and gone to school to wait for the the new girl, who I know will fall for me.
God would still be there in 60 years time - why waste my life by jumping the gun when I now know I can be happy?
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GrandpaDeath
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All around me are familiar faces ...
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Post by GrandpaDeath on May 6, 2005 14:40:31 GMT -5
Well, if you had just gone through what Donnie did, and had memory of it (as Donnie did remember what happened), could you go on living? Not that you would be totally depressed or anything; but your level of consciousness and 'enlightenment', 'spirituality', etc, etc, (all that good stuff), would be too high, too powerful for this world. I mean, what else could you possibly do? Well, you could spend the rest of your life walking to and from an empty mailbox.  |
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Canuckfcuk
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'Frankarella, psychadella, there's a kinda cocoa shell about you, Frankarella, Frank, Frankarella'
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Post by Canuckfcuk on May 6, 2005 15:51:17 GMT -5
I would have gotten the hell out of Dodge, and gone to school to wait for the the new girl, who I know will fall for me. God would still be there in 60 years time - why waste my life by jumping the gun when I now know I can be happy? Ah, but you see, my point is (and it's just my little humble opinion), will you be happy? Knowing what you now know; doing what you've just done; after the emotional, spiritual, intellectual journey you have just taken: you would still be happy living your life day-to-day? I wouldn't. But that's what makes this world such a great place, the different ways we live it. |
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Canuckfcuk
New Member
'Frankarella, psychadella, there's a kinda cocoa shell about you, Frankarella, Frank, Frankarella'
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Post by Canuckfcuk on May 6, 2005 15:53:29 GMT -5
Well, you could spend the rest of your life walking to and from an empty mailbox. Lol! Actually, I think that's what screwed Roberta Sparrow up! She went on the same journey as Donnie Darko and it was too much for her; she just burnt out. |
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