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Post by Madridarko on Apr 5, 2005 18:01:16 GMT -5
What evidence do you have for that? There is nothing to suggest this is true: - the only time she acts as if they are in the TU and she knows about it is in the DC - and only after Donnie has told her in his letter. - The only person she interacts with is Donnie, and he initiates that contact. (Ok the near RTA initiated contact, but that was down to his father (and Sparrow) being ML, it's not like Sparrow waited for Donnie specifically before wandering into the road). The only thing that is suspiciously convenient is that fact that she lives in the area at all. With a closer inspection of the PoTT's last page.. you can see there is a whole page of notes that basically reads this...... This was written most likely by Roberta Sparrow (Donnie couldn't have written this because that wouldn't make sense because he recieved it in the TU, so some external person had to know of what was going to happen in the TU and when it was finally closed) the only other person that had possesion of this book besides the author and Donnie, was proffesor Monotiff... and I really doubt it was him (but there is a possibility it could have been him) but if it was to be him who took the notes it would just raise furthur more questions about the origins of his knowledge......... Notes Living Receiver Donald [or maybe Donnie] Darko (died October 2, 1988) Manipulated Dead Frank (Anderson) Gretchen Ross (not her real name) Manipulated Living (everyone else in the film - list includes Donnie's family, friends, enemies, Roberta Sparrow, etc. // note after Jim Cunningham's name reads, I think, "died October 1988") |
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Post by Madridarko on Apr 5, 2005 18:10:56 GMT -5
The only problem with this is if you believe that God is the Mover in the movie, corruptions 'just happening' would suggest that God's design (and by extension God) is fallable. Well I kinda have an explanation for this... but is more like a personal theory based on my perpectives/points of view... Well God gave us all free will right... and that simple fact creats a paradox, because that would mean that we would be able to defy his original "plans".... In my opinion, we are able to have free will for that vast majority of our actions, but there are certain actions that are pre-planed and must happen at any cost and those are the certain events that are ultimatly pre-destined by god (such as the death of somebody in a car accident that couldn't have been avoided one way or the other) So basically God gives us free will within a wide range of choices... So things sometimes do happen without a reason, and they can cause a disruptancy that will contradict/interfeer the a determined pattern/selected actions that a universe will take (like the engine which probably causes the TU which will lead to the destruction of the universe and which I doubt is in the plans of God right now).. Where is exactly this distinguishing line between the unavoidable pre-destined actions and the avoidable mortal-caused actions? I frankly don't know.............................  |
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Post by Bigboy on Apr 5, 2005 19:36:04 GMT -5
I addressed the idea of Monnitoff writing the notes here: darkomovie.proboards24.com/index.cgi?board=disc&action=display&thread=1104812740If you want to continue that discussion, it's probably best to do it there. Re: Free will; I wasn't really talking about free will, but anywho... Ok we have two ideas from your post: - we have free will within certain boundries set by God
- we can escape those boundries by virtue of our free will
These statements are contradictory; The first suggests that our free will is lesser than the will of God, and the second suggests the exact opposite. If you accept both to be true, you are only reinforcing the idea that God's design (and therefore God) is fallable. |
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Post by KISMET on Apr 5, 2005 23:13:45 GMT -5
No they are not contratdictory. Free will and Gods plan are one in the same. We all have "free" will but God knows what we will choose because he knows us better than we know ourselves, hence there is a plan, a "road map of Destiny" if you will
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Post by Bigboy on Apr 6, 2005 4:57:05 GMT -5
That's exactly my point though - If God knows everything that will happen and everything we will do, then the Universe would have been designed to account for all of these actions.
The idea that we can redraw, or leave, that "roadmap of destiny", as Madridarko puts forward, suggests that we can do things that God cannot predict - making Him fallable...
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Post by KISMET on Apr 6, 2005 14:26:04 GMT -5
If God is fallable than the roadmap theory is shot to shit because that means any person could rewrite their destiny, hence concluding that we all choose our destiny and that God has nothing to do with it. Now, the roadmap of God theory only works if we "accept " that fact that he knows that we would "rebell" against his set path for us and our Rebellion is already in his plan. Make sense?  |
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Post by Madridarko on Apr 6, 2005 18:05:55 GMT -5
I addressed the idea of Monnitoff writing the notes here: darkomovie.proboards24.com/index.cgi?board=disc&action=display&thread=1104812740Re: Free will; I wasn't really talking about free will, but anywho... Ok we have two ideas from your post: - we have free will within certain boundries set by God
- we can escape those boundries by virtue of our free will
These statements are contradictory; The first suggests that our free will is lesser than the will of God, and the second suggests the exact opposite. I know you adviced me not to continue these comments in this thread but please just allow me to respond to this comment... Our free will allows us to sometimes in certain ways, in really rare and specieal occasions, to devieate from God's wide-ranging "roadmap" directions, and precisely because those "directions" are not supposed to be possible in accordance to God's "plans", this new "road" formed will be unstable and will most likely collapse upon itself (hence we have the need of God sending a messenger, aka Frank BR, and choose somebody to return or fix whatever is it that is causing this major deviation)... also in a desperate attempt to return the timeline to the original order God takes away the prevelige of "Free will" in order to not allow the possibilites of any "mistakes" happening which will bring the end of the Universe... But appereantly he can't influence our Free will directly, and also for some reason it must be neccessary for the LR to be left with Free will, so the ensurance trapt must be secured iin order to have the desired outcome of returning the Artifact... Thus everybod except the LR is being "Manipulated"... |
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Post by Bigboy on Apr 6, 2005 18:59:53 GMT -5
So in essence you are both saying that the Universe is designed in such a way that our free will can break it. God knows this and follows up with some elaborate get out method (the TU). It sounds like bad design hastily patched up to me - hardly what you would expect from an omniscient and omnipotent overbeing. I also can't get along with the Henry Ford school of metaphysics ("You can have any colour car you like, so long as it's black."). "You can do whatever you like as long as it's this." is not free will in by book. I just cant escape the conclusion that either God is not perfect OR God had nothing to do with it. Nor do I think there is a workable middle ground - so I'm gonna have to agree to disagree with you guys on this, sorry.  (I'd like to stress that all of this is in the context of the movie - it's not my intention to attack anyone's beliefs.) |
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Post by Madridarko on Apr 6, 2005 19:11:04 GMT -5
It's ok, everybody has uniquely different opinions on this movie, and that is what makes DD even more enjoyable, the fact that it can be intepetrated in so many different forms..
But just to go along with you're Ford analogy, I think it's more like '"You can have any colour car you like, so long as it's a solid color" type of thing.............. Meaning he gives us options within a certain range and only rarely sometimes we can escape the spectrum of his choices, and like you said, he tries to "patch" it up, or fix it in order for things to return withing the acceptable spectrum.. I think that is the omnipotency of him, he has the power to be able to make corrections at such large scale...
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Post by KISMET on Apr 6, 2005 19:22:45 GMT -5
Dont worry no ones views are offended.
Its not that you HAVE to choose "black" because thats what God is forcing you to do, but we choose "black" because that is who we are and yes maybe on occasion we can switch it up a bit with a "solid color" but then we will still be choosing the "black" because that is who we are. I just re-read this and it is really hard to follow my analogy so sorry if its hard to sort through!
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Post by Bigboy on Apr 6, 2005 20:37:21 GMT -5
I understand you just fine, it's just that I can't make it work...
in an earlier post:
Ok, so rebellion is defined as going against the plan. But rebellion is part of the plan (or at least is accounted for in the plan).
So by rebelling you are in fact following the plan - so you can't be rebelling!
Ok, so we are designed to act in such a way that we will 'choose black'. But if we reduce 'Free Will' to absolute predictability by design, then our choices are defined by the blueprints drawn up billions of years ago, and we end up with no Free Will at all.
Then we go back to the "but were not predictable, that's the point" reply - which just takes us back to the "rebellion" paradox above.
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Post by KISMET on Apr 7, 2005 12:06:45 GMT -5
I get where your coming from but, God cant be perfect and omnipotent and make mistakes at the same time. And if one claims that God is still in control with a plan for each of us but we are able to slip from the grasps of his fate for us, then he cant really be in control and perfect, even if only one person slips he still does not have full control and has made a mistake. And if he did make a mistake than he still tries to fix it and put his plan back in motion with the tangent universe then things still happen his way!
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Post by Bigboy on Apr 7, 2005 12:37:31 GMT -5
Cool - we seem to agree then; If the TU is in fact God's way of fixing destiny, then God must be imperfect.
As an agnostic I've no problem with the idea - but all of the religions that believe in God (Judaism, Christinanty, Islam etc), the idea that God is perfect is pretty much a central belief.
(It still seem a bit wonky to me, but thats probably just the affect of all the dogma I've been exposed to over the years...)
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Post by Phil on Apr 7, 2005 13:20:28 GMT -5
but all of the religions that believe in God (Judaism, Christinanty, Islam etc), the idea that God is perfect is pretty much a central belief. which proves how flawed religion is, because they also believe that god made man in his own image. Tbh, if thats the case, then god is far from perfect |
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Post by *eyes* on Apr 7, 2005 16:27:36 GMT -5
hes mperfect and had premarital sex with mother earth lol (sorry stupid comment but im trying ot add humor when i read these they look so serious a lot of the time) either that orgod is assexual (i think thats wat its called) and has both sets of anatomy and produced the world and everything in it himself
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