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Post by ProvidencePortal on Sept 28, 2004 11:02:09 GMT -5
That's an interesting point Hellangel: did Donnie even have time to get up?
Merging your thoughts and those above makes for a pretty workable argument, I think: Donnie wakes up from a detailed dream and, though he remembers it clearly, he is discombobulated. Before he can process the information and make a decision -- and, say, before the rationale can catch up with the feelings he's having about sacrifice, saving his loved ones and God's path -- WHAM, the engine falls, and we have a Donnie-kabob.
So maybe Donnie's death has less to do with what he knew and more to do with what he had time figure out upon waking.
Really great discussion by everyone involved. Thanks for that. Still, my personal belief that none of the events that occured in the TU would have been played out in the PU had Donnie lived, plus his seeming total coherence before the engine falls, still has me searching for an answer.
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Post by rightfielder21 on Sept 28, 2004 11:51:40 GMT -5
The reason that I believe he "chose" not to get up, was his sigh and smile, before he turned over in bed... I got the feeling that he knew what was happening but was fine with it... That's just me...
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Post by gretchen on Sept 29, 2004 18:04:22 GMT -5
i am disagreeing with you providence! and siding with rightfielder. eh... maybe i am too much of a hopeless romantic to chalk it up to a mistake! he CHOSE dammit! sorry for being all emotional today..... *sigh* i am just a girl, you know.......
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Post by ProvidencePortal on Sept 30, 2004 11:18:03 GMT -5
Don't apologize -- I for one love emotional ... and being disagreed with! We don't have much to go on with regard to this question, so I say we use every thing we have at our disposal to come up with a theory -- rationale and/or emotional as it may be. Believe it or not, I want to believe Donnie chose to die, too. I just can't ... despite continuing to look for it ... find evidence that explains WHY he'd chose to die. But I can go on faith for now believing that he chose death as a noble act, and just await some explanation for why.
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Post by rightfielder21 on Sept 30, 2004 14:38:23 GMT -5
There are several things that I base my opinion on...
Kelly stated in the Director's Commentary that Donnie could have gotten out of bed, in a round about way...
The last few lines of Donnie's letter: "I can only hope that the answers will come to me in my sleep. I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to."
I believe that Donnie could have gotten out of bed... There was nothing holding him there... I think he came to a realization that he could have never been as spiritually fulfilled and content with himself, as he was while lying there in bed... He decided to go out on top...
Throughout his journey in the TU, he quelled one of his biggest fears, dying and being alone, as well as his search for God... Donnie realized he was loved and had the capacity to love... If he were to get out of bed, there is no guarantee he would ever have that feeling of euphoria again...
We have to remember, that even before Donnie embarked in the TU, he wasn’t the happiest person in the world, he had some serious issues… He probably had never experienced the feelings that he felt upon completing his mission, and didn’t want to ever lose it…
The sigh and smile, before he turns over in bed, awaiting the engine, sealed the deal for me…
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Post by GretchenFan on Sept 30, 2004 15:00:57 GMT -5
Don't apologize -- I for one love emotional ... and being disagreed with! We don't have much to go on with regard to this question, so I say we use every thing we have at our disposal to come up with a theory -- rationale and/or emotional as it may be. Believe it or not, I want to believe Donnie chose to die, too. I just can't ... despite continuing to look for it ... find evidence that explains WHY he'd chose to die. But I can go on faith for now believing that he chose death as a noble act, and just await some explanation for why. I think the reason why Donnie died was because that's what God wanted. It has been referenced several times on this site that Donnie may be a pseudo-Jesus figure in that he dies to save the fate of others. So, although the connection / comparisons are fairly weak at best, perhaps it was Donnie's destiny. That may be the reason that Donnie died. Either that or the gigantic fucking plane engine that squished his little body into a pancake. BAM!
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Post by gretchen on Sept 30, 2004 20:23:05 GMT -5
lol gf... okay the only rebuttal i have to make (waiting for the inevitable BUTT joke) is that donnie was not squished. we're debating this topic in the "cheesy death scene" on the DVD board.
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Post by GretchenFan on Oct 1, 2004 0:52:06 GMT -5
lol gf... okay the only rebuttal i have to make (waiting for the inevitable BUTT joke) is that donnie was not squished. we're debating this topic in the "cheesy death scene" on the DVD board. Donnie was TOTALLY squished! If you don't believe it, let me set up a time with you to drop a gigantic plane engine on you from thousands of feet in the air and see if YOU don't get squished! Gretchen = pancake. BAM!
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Post by gretchen on Oct 1, 2004 18:06:27 GMT -5
GF go to the dvd board... i'd be happy to argue with you but i'm not hijacking this thread
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Post by Buu on Oct 12, 2004 15:08:39 GMT -5
The events that Frank guides Donnie to are what Donnie was meant to do in the Primary Universe or real world, If he doesn't get killed by the engine. This is supported by his destiny spear/fluid leading him to the gun.
Had Donny awoken and avoided the engine, his schizofrenic nature (In one deleted scene, we learn that Donnie has recently been taken off medication and placed on placebo) would've caused him to flood the school, either out of spite for the school or to spend more time with Gretchen; burn down Cunningham's house out of spite, and shoot Frank out of anger after he hit Gretchen. These actions lead donny to send the engine of his mom and sis's plane thru the portal as we see in the movie. He's actually sending the engine to Oct. 2 to kill himself to avoid all the events he's just seen (Death of Gretchen, murder of Frank). By doing this he creates an "artifact", because the engine he sends thru doesn't belong where he's sending it. He has either sent the engine to a tangent universe or created a tangent universe when he sent the engine thru. This tangent universe places all reality at risk. (Donnie had to have actually done all these things of his own "free will" at some point)
When the engine arrives in the tangent universe, it would kill Donnie and he could never fix the problem that the engine's presence creates. The manipulated body of Frank (Who has already been killed by Donnie in the real universe) is sent to help Tangent Donnie escape death and perform all the tasks listed above so that he can send a "replacement" engine back to the real universe.
The world that most of the movie takes place in contains one too many engines (Because real Donnie sent it there). By sending an engine from the tangent universe (Oct. 30) into the real universe(Oct 2.) he balances things out. Since the universe is no longer compromised by an artifact (The engine that kills him is from the tangent universe, the engine from the real universe has perished with the tangent universe and was replaced by the tangent engine) Donnie isn't needed to restore order and so he's free to die and avoid the pain he would bring to Frank, Gretchen, and his family.
The engine that hits him in the end, is the same engine we see him send thru the portal.
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Post by gretchen on Oct 12, 2004 17:59:19 GMT -5
my responses in boldThe events that Frank guides Donnie to are what Donnie was meant to do in the Primary Universe or real world, If he doesn't get killed by the engine. not necessarily, we don't know this for sure.Had Donny awoken and avoided the engine, his schizofrenic nature (In one deleted scene, we learn that Donnie has recently been taken off medication and placed on placebo) would've caused him to flood the school, either out of spite for the school or to spend more time with Gretchen; burn down Cunningham's house out of spite, and shoot Frank out of anger after he hit Gretchen. guys? do we know he was taken off real meds, or was he only on placebos?
and again, we don't know that he would do these things on his own, without frank. donnie himself states that frank MADE him do those things. unless you are implying that frank is simply donnie's hallucinationThese actions lead donny to send the engine of his mom and sis's plane thru the portal as we see in the movie. He's actually sending the engine to Oct. 2 to kill himself to avoid all the events he's just seen (Death of Gretchen, murder of Frank). By doing this he creates an "artifact", because the engine he sends thru doesn't belong where he's sending it. He has either sent the engine to a tangent universe or created a tangent universe when he sent the engine thru. This tangent universe places all reality at risk. (Donnie had to have actually done all these things of his own "free will" at some point) When the engine arrives in the tangent universe, it would kill Donnie and he could never fix the problem that the engine's presence creates. The manipulated body of Frank (Who has already been killed by Donnie in the real universe) is sent to help Tangent Donnie escape death and perform all the tasks listed above so that he can send a "replacement" engine back to the real universe. this entire section is a little confusing to me... it seems very "loopy" and difficult. what i think you are saying is that if PU donnie had been allowed to live and had done everything we see him do, he would send the PU engine back to kill himself?...thus creating a loop? The world that most of the movie takes place in contains one too many engines (Because real Donnie sent it there). By sending an engine from the tangent universe (Oct. 30) into the real universe(Oct 2.) he balances things out. Since the universe is no longer compromised by an artifact (The engine that kills him is from the tangent universe, the engine from the real universe has perished with the tangent universe and was replaced by the tangent engine) Donnie isn't needed to restore order and so he's free to die and avoid the pain he would bring to Frank, Gretchen, and his family. The engine that hits him in the end, is the same engine we see him send thru the portal. yes... that is the accepted theory... i find it hard however to accept most of your post because you seem to be following the "loop theory", or "backtrack theory" and personally i just don't agree with it.... guys?
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Post by Buu on Oct 12, 2004 18:20:45 GMT -5
1.) "Not necesarily, we don't know that for sure." ;D That's a prety half-assed response given the subject matter and some of the theories you and other posters hae put out.
It's just my theory. It makes the most sense, IMO, compared to other theories.
2.) Whether he was schizo or not, doesn't make or break my theory. Frank is the manipulated dead, that is sent to make sure Donnie does what he's supposed to do. Remember, in the original PU, there never was an engine falling thru his roof. This is why Frank the Rabbit must intervene to make sure Donnie follows the same path.
Donnie basically tells the teacher that he intends to follow God's channel. This channel led him to the gun. This suggests that Donnie was always meant to have the gun.
The "What if you could go back..." quote makes most sense with my theory.
3.) You said you didn't understand, but then summed it up perfectly. Aren't "loops" a huge basis for the whole movie? What was the signifigance of the spiral? "When people run in circles..."
I don't see what's so "loopy" or confusing.
Where do you propose the first engine came from?
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Post by gretchen on Oct 12, 2004 18:26:55 GMT -5
while i could easily explain myself.
i won't.
there was no reason for you to flood our boards. and if i were a mod... i would ban you.
so i'll do what i can, and won't answer.
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Post by Buu on Oct 12, 2004 18:29:55 GMT -5
Just to clarify; when I say Donnie performed acts of his own will, I'm not talking about what we see in the movie. Donnie tries to send the engine to Oct. 2 BEFORE the movie starts. The first engine we see is the one Donnie sent back to kill himself and save Gretchen and Frank.
This is what causes the Tangent Universe we see in most of the movie.
Does anyone recall the talk in the book about the soldier killed by a mystery sword, or the warrior killed by a phantom arrow? If these were similar phenomena, wouldn't they have been artifacts and caused a tangent universe?
Paraphrasing: "Can these portals happen on their own for no reason?"
"Highly unlikely."
Where did the first engine come from?
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Post by Buu on Oct 12, 2004 18:33:00 GMT -5
while i could easily explain myself. i won't. there was no reason for you to flood our boards. and if i were a mod... i would ban you. so i'll do what i can, and won't answer. Owned!!! Alot of these threads don't get traffic for days and weeks at a time. I posted my theory in the most active threads. If your server can't handle all 12 of my posts, then that's you and the mods problem.
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