|
|
Post by sodawax on Sept 22, 2004 12:01:15 GMT -5
OK, I was thinking and I don't know why this never came to me before, but Donnie's death really saves no one?... and What happens to the primary universe 'after' the jet engine goes in the portal? Does the tangent universe and primary universe stay in a loop as the primary universe lives on after the jet engine? Allow me to explain on how I see it...
Donnie's mission is out to save the world by closing the portal. Which he does successfully. Now Donnie, being the Living Receiver that he is, remembers the entire dream of the tangent universe, correct! Now, if he was to live on instead of die at the end, then none of the bad things would happen because they all happened do to Donnie's mission, which this time there is no mission because the job is done. He would have no reason to talk to his teacher, Kenneth Monnitoff, because why would he be looking for an answer he already knows from remembering the tangent universe, and why would he even ask him if there's no more mission. And by having no mission, there wouldn't be any reason to rush or even go at all to Sparrows house, which wouldn't kill anyone. Now if the wormhole has been totally destroyed, then no plane will crash either. Or does the wormhole come back on the 30th? Which would make a time loop.
Ok, I've modified this...
Now, what if there is a time loop because Donnie does have some kind of super power even with-in the primary universe that he never knew about. Maybe he's the one that sent the engine in the portal in the first place, creating the tangent universe, but never knew that he did it or has no control over it. But on his mission in the tangent universe, he figures that out. So his death is to stop the time loop... Which, is saving the world from his owm mistake.
|
|
|
|
Post by ProvidencePortal on Sept 22, 2004 14:31:32 GMT -5
I think you're digging around the edges of what is the most intriguing (and frustrating) question I have about the ending, sodawax: if it was Donnie's destiny is to repair the dimensional rift, and he has done so by the time he's returned to bed at the end of the movie, why would he need to die at all?
Most explanations claim that he must sacrifice himself to keep other terrible things from happening ... but these are all terrible things that followed the creation of the Tangent Universe. Once the connection to that alternate place is closed, might not Donnie proceed to live a very happy and normal life by getting out of bed the moment Frank beeps his horn out front as the movie closes? We are dealing with the Primary Universe Donnie at the close, right (for otherwise he and all the other alternates would have disappeared with the ending of the TU). From my understanding, he's already closed the rift and satisfied his destiny. Providence is intact.
Forget for a moment all the questions of whether he's heroic or compelled in his death -- my question is, does he have to die at all? Or am I missing some switcheroo somewhere during the movie, where we move from following the Tangent Donnie to the Primary, or vice versa?
mod: corrected spelling
|
|
|
|
Post by rightfielder21 on Sept 22, 2004 14:59:06 GMT -5
Forget for a moment all the questions of whether he's heroic or compelled in his death -- my question is, does he have to die at all? Or am I missing some switcheroo somewhere during the movie, where we move from following the Tangent Donnie to the Primary, or vice versa? mod: corrected spellingIn my opinion, no... Donnie did not need to die... Granted there was a "fated" aspect to Donnie's death... If you read TPOTT, it talks about the warrior and knight, mysteriously killed... I believe that Donnie could have gotten out of bed, but he didn't because for once in his life, he was completely happy, he no longer feared dying or being alone, he know was was loved by his family, idolized by Chereta, and was capable of love (gretchen), and was content with god and death... If he got out of bed he may not have ever been able to recreate the feeling he had at that point and time, and as he said in his letter at the end of the movie... "I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to." |
|
|
|
Post by ProvidencePortal on Sept 22, 2004 15:20:57 GMT -5
Thanks, rightfielder21 -- that's a thoughtful response. I can see someone reaching a certain level of philosophical contentment ... everything's right in the world for once, and I can move beyond it in peace.
But that still has me wondering why, really, Donnie would choose death. Suppose he was feeling that cosmic OK-ness you described: why not get out of bed, go downstairs to breakfast, and see if he can't spread a little of the peace and satisfaction of knowing that, in fact, people don't have to die alone?
I'm asking only because I genuinely want to know if some part of the mythos Kelly has built here explains why Donnie goes SPLAT if he doesn't have to ... or whether we may never know.
|
|
|
|
Post by rightfielder21 on Sept 22, 2004 16:29:25 GMT -5
Kelly actually states several reasons why Donnie doesn't get out of bed... He says he didn't hear Frank honking the horn, or he just was so happy he forgot...
I tend to think he made the decision to stay in bed... Yes he could have got out of bed and lived a "normal" life, but he was content with dying... We will never know the real reason, because it doesn't seem like Kelly even knows, you just have to pick what works for you, and go with it...
|
|
|
|
Post by sodawax on Sept 22, 2004 18:46:32 GMT -5
Kelly actually states several reasons why Donnie doesn't get out of bed... He says he didn't hear Frank honking the horn, or he just was so happy he forgot...
Well then, that's a pretty stupid ending if you ask me... One thing I've wondered is how the engine got in the wormhole in the first place. If the wormhole ripped it off in the primary universe, then why does Donnie have to rip it off in the tangent universe? This is why my last paragraph makes more sense to me. It actually makes an ending that everyone can figure out, including Kelly.
|
|
|
|
Post by rightfielder21 on Sept 22, 2004 18:56:33 GMT -5
Well then, that's a pretty stupid ending if you ask me... Which is why I have my own explaination...  |
|
|
|
Post by ProvidencePortal on Sept 23, 2004 9:40:24 GMT -5
Which is why I have my own explaination... Well, one thing's for certain: we need an explanation other than what's offered explicitally in the movie and related texts; I wish I could feel satisfied with the ambiguity of "maybe he didn't hear ... maybe he didn't want to get out of bed for some reason we'll never know." The rest of the movie just feels so purposeful: Kelly has said and demonstrated that one of the most important things to him in making this movie was assembling a mythos that had its own logic -- and made sense within that logic. Unfortunately, it's feeling like all the effort that went into a very complicated story (and what a commendable effort it was!) missed linking the rest of the movie to its most important scene ... the end. Maybe we're to draw a parallel to Grandma Death, and assume that Donnie could choose to live ... but that he'd be alienated, alone, trapped in his own bubble of loops and eccentricities (like checking the mailbox over and over and over) because he's been reduced to a cog in some other, in-the-future Ensurance Trap? Might it be that the fate of the Living Receiver that chooses not to die upon conclusion of his mission is he/she is forced to await a different death with full knowledge of it ... but must be alone in the meantime? So, re-reading that, my proposal becomes: a Living Receiver, as part of the cosmic (and abtruse) rules that govern the whole TU-repair process, is faced with a choice at the conclusion of his/her mission. He/she may elect to die awash in the enlightened knowledge that all is right in the world thanks to the divine's existence and its providence ... or the Living Receiver may choose to live. Those that choose to live are bucking the divine plan, and therefore are relegated to a life of solitude and alienation and are assigned responsibility to some future TU/Living Receiver loop. They live their lives aware of when they'll die, cursed to exhibit the twitches and ticks of a person exposed to God and shunned, compulsively checking over and over again for signs that the TU/LR loop to which they're assigned has begun. What's everyone think of that? edit: reworded for clarity |
|
|
|
Post by rightfielder21 on Sept 23, 2004 14:14:00 GMT -5
It sounds good, if you buy into the fact that Grandma Death was a Living Reciever once....
|
|
|
|
Post by gretchen on Sept 23, 2004 14:49:48 GMT -5
i dunno guys... while i don't believe he HAD to die, he chose to, because of what he knew and was shown. and who's to say he wouldn't save anyone by dying? we don't KNOW what would have happened if he dodged the path at the end... we know that the experiences in the TU are like a dream... perhaps donnie remembers all when he is in bed about to be crushed again, but what if it fades? as dreams so often do... he forgets, bam. PU shit starts to hit the fan. who's to say he doesn't save anyone?
plus i'm agreeing with the whole straying from the path leads to a life of solitude as noted by Providence (lovely posts by the way).
|
|
|
|
Post by ProvidencePortal on Sept 23, 2004 15:20:40 GMT -5
Thanks, gretchen and Rightfielder21. Gretch, it's a brilliant point about Donnie's experience in the TU. Is it a flash -- a millisecond that occurs only in his mind -- or is it what me might consider a "truer" experience, where he heads off to the TU for adventures galore?
And, for me, you've hit the other nail on the head: what is going on behind his eyes at the moment Donnie awakens at the end? Does he remember clearly? Does he believe he's awakened from a wild dream? Does he know anything about what's happened?
Like RF said ... probably questions we'll always wrestle with. But I do believe that we usually have all the tools we need in the texts we're provided; if a world makes enough sense, the author's usually given us enough to draw parallels and derive answers that make the whole thing work. I for one will continue to noodle ...
edit: grrrr ... dumb misspelling
|
|
|
|
Post by ProvidencePortal on Sept 23, 2004 16:01:59 GMT -5
As an addendum to this thread, I thought you all might find it interesting that this particular debate extends outside the forum.
Salon.com publishes a series titled, "Everything you were afraid to ask about [MOVIE NAME]," in which they explore movies that aren't immediately accessible on first viewing and offer answers to the questions people are asking in communities like this one. In another thread somewhere, someone had helpfully posted the "Everything you were afraid to ask about Donnie Darko" article from Salon (http://www.salon.com/ent/movies/feature/2004/07/23/darko/) by Dan Kois.
I read the article, loved how cogently Dan explained the movie ... and enjoyed his style, too. So I wrote him myself and posed the one question he doesn't really answer (and, coincidentally, the one we are grappling with here): why does Donnie die? Dan wrote me back -- quite quickly -- and his response follows:
I'm glad you enjoyed the article, and especially glad that you noticed that I wrote the entire thing from a stool in Cambridge.
Why does Donnie die? It's a good question, and one I only address a little in the piece. My thesis -- more or less unsupported -- is that he wakes up from an extremely detailed dream, knows what's coming, but feels in his heart that the only way to ensure that everyone he loves is safe -- that the circumstances of the Tangent Universe don't repeat themselves -- is to give up his own life.
I don't mind that interpretation too much, even though there's no particular evidence for it. It just feels right to me. That said, I've gotten a lot of other suggestions from people, from schizophrenia-related suicide to Donnie being Christ reincarnate. There's definitely no Official Word on this question, for what it's worth.
Thanks for writing.
-Dan
So that's another Darko-phile's perspective. In case you're wondering, the bit about the stool in Cambridge was resulted from my comment about why I liked his style: I said I liked his at-a-stool-in-a-Cambridge-pub, I-know-the-complicated-answer tone.
|
|
|
|
Post by gretchen on Sept 23, 2004 17:41:57 GMT -5
Why does Donnie die? It's a good question, and one I only address a little in the piece. My thesis -- more or less unsupported -- is that he wakes up from an extremely detailed dream, knows what's coming, but feels in his heart that the only way to ensure that everyone he loves is safe -- that the circumstances of the Tangent Universe don't repeat themselves -- is to give up his own life. this is exactly what i'm talking about. donnie doesn't know the things that happened won't happen again if he chooses to live... so neither do we. another point mentioned, i have come, as others, to believe that donnie's journey is not in the least about timetravel, but more about travel between parallel universes in which time flows at a much different rate. 28 days and some change in the TU is only a milisecond in the PU... it's like... a flash, a dream, DEJA VU is what i'm coming more to think of it as... in the end sequence we see everyone awake, and the expressions on their faces show us that they know something. providence, there is another thread... i think it was started by adam, that i'd like to hear what you have to say about...you can find it here: darkomovie.proboards24.com/index.cgi?board=disc&action=display&thread=1095195397 |
|
|
|
Post by ProvidencePortal on Sept 23, 2004 19:36:35 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by Hellangel on Sept 26, 2004 7:44:23 GMT -5
what i want to say. that frank makes a signal ( dunno english word) has no usw for donnie to survive. its like *beep beep* 2 1 - crash - there msut be a very very fast donnie to survive this. |
|
