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Post by drfisher on Oct 11, 2004 9:22:10 GMT -5
Did Donnie send the original engine into the primary universe? What happened before the film? Why did he wake up and smile? Is this because the Primary Universe is actually a Tangent Universe of the real Primary Universe? Why did he choose to die? Maybe because this is a continous cycle and what we think is the primary universe is in fact a tangent universe!
If my theory is true then this creates a paradox as it was Donnie who sent the engine into the Primary Universe so creating the link between the primary universe and the tangent universe. The tangent universe destroys itself becuase it is unstable but the link means the creation of the blackhole and the destruction of the primary universe.
Did Donnie create the initial link? Was the primary universe really the primary universe or another tangent universe? Was this a repeat of actions from before the film?
I think Donnie chose to die because he found love and god and because he was tired of doing this over and over again. I do not think this is the first time Donnie did this.
Why? Because POTT says that the artifact must be sent back. Donnie didn't send the original engine back he sent an identical one back therefore does this count as him sending the artifact back?
just a thought
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Post by ProvidencePortal on Oct 11, 2004 12:08:22 GMT -5
Donnie didn't send the original engine back he sent an identical one back therefore does this count as him sending the artifact back? Very intriguing question. It sure seems to be something of a misnomer to say Donnie "returned the artifact" when, indeed, what he sent back was in all ways identical but was not the actual engine to first fall into the TU. It might be inarguable, too: I don't know that we have enough in the mythos to support a legal-style dissection of what the "contract of the LR" demands, and I don't know that we'd get anywhere satisfactory with that anyway. Let me suggest something else instead. Given what we "know" from the various texts -- the movie, the PoTT, DVD commentary and interviews with Kelly -- I'm concluding that: A) because the TU is an exact mirror of the items in the PU, the TU engine is indistinguishable physically and cosmically from the PU one that falls at the start of the movie; and B) the impact (no pun) the artifact has is ultimately what's most important to the story. What we watch unfold indicates that the ramifications of -- and the questions that arise from -- the artifact's arrival are what drive the core themes of compassion, love of God and unity in providence and divine will. The book says that, because the artifact's arrival is inexplicable, it is usually assigned religious significance. Is it enough to fulfill the contract by returning a replica, simply because the religious reflection and the personal sacrifice that will occur are what's really integral to the LR cycle? As to the idea that our commonly held understanding of when the movie is in the TU and when it's in the PU might actually be inverted: it's interesting to think about, no doubt. I have trouble really applying it as a workable theory and not just a fun exercise, though. One sticking point is the PoTT's description of TU powers and goings-on -- those things would have to be occuring in the PU for drfisher's proposal to pan out. And if Donnie were looping, first by creating the TU and then by ending it, how are we to understand his reincarnation/resurrection following the end of each loop? Good post, drfisher! |
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Post by gretchen on Oct 11, 2004 16:47:07 GMT -5
i'm not even going to try to answer this right now... maybe drfisher, you'd like to do a search before beginning a new thread? prov! your post count!  |
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Post by ProvidencePortal on Oct 11, 2004 18:10:24 GMT -5
I know, G -- what the hell happened? I started answering questions and (as GF would say), BAM!
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Post by drfisher on Oct 11, 2004 19:15:16 GMT -5
I'm not suggesting the PU is the TU as it is clear that the events which unfold in the TU are actually in the TU. The montage at the end of the film, the Manipulated Dead etc.
What I'm suggesting is that what we think is the PU is actually another TU from the PU. In otherwords what we are witnessing in the film is in fact 2 TU's.
I saw the butterfly effect and at the end we are led to think that there were in fact 3 sons completing a cycle and the cycle was only ended when a daughter was born and this made me wonder whether Donnie was doing the same thing again and again only for it to end with his death.
I do not suggest that he dies and is resurrected each time only that he died the final time. It could be that by returning the artifact each time he is creating another TU thereby creating the cycle. As POTT tells us that the appearance of the artifact signifies the creation of a TU. Why does the Jet Engine belond in Donnie's bedroom in the PU?
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Post by gretchen on Oct 11, 2004 20:48:00 GMT -5
I saw the butterfly effect and at the end we are led to think that there were in fact 3 sons completing a cycle and the cycle was only ended when a daughter was born. i saw the butterfly effect as well... but did not get that idea out of it....... maybe it has just been a while since i've watched it but... i'm not remembering a 3 son cycle... or a cycle being ended when a daughter was born. but i'll try not to get off subject. this could be brought into the "other good movies" thread or the general board. |
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Post by drfisher on Oct 12, 2004 7:20:31 GMT -5
Don't want to go too far into the butterfly effect as this is not the correct place but I will briefly explain as this can't be left open.
At the end of the film when he kills himself (depending upon which ending you saw as there were 4.) The mother says "not again". We then learn she has had 2 previous miscarriages with her previous 2 unborn sons. We also learn that the main character's "mental" condition is hereditary in only the male side of the family.
At the end of the film, she has a daughter and says "finally it's over"
If you want to continue a discussion into the butterfly effect please start a post and I will happily join in.
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Post by gretchen on Oct 12, 2004 17:47:19 GMT -5
hm... interesting. apparently i have only seen the one ending, the theater release ending... and even tho i did rent the dvd not too long ago i'm lazy about extras and didn't know there were multiple scenes... we shall have to continue this on the other board!
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Post by Buu on Oct 12, 2004 17:51:59 GMT -5
The events that Frank guides Donnie to are what Donnie was meant to do in the Primary Universe or real world, If he doesn't get killed by the engine. This is supported by his destiny spear/fluid leading him to the gun.
Had Donny awoken and avoided the engine, his schizofrenic nature (In one deleted scene, we learn that Donnie has recently been taken off medication and placed on placebo) would've caused him to flood the school, either out of spite for the school or to spend more time with Gretchen; burn down Cunningham's house out of spite, and shoot Frank out of anger after he hit Gretchen. These actions lead donny to send the engine of his mom and sis's plane thru the portal as we see in the movie. He's actually sending the engine to Oct. 2 to kill himself to avoid all the events he's just seen (Death of Gretchen, murder of Frank). By doing this he creates an "artifact", because the engine he sends thru doesn't belong where he's sending it. He has either sent the engine to a tangent universe or created a tangent universe when he sent the engine thru. This tangent universe places all reality at risk. (Donnie had to have actually done all these things of his own "free will" at some point)
When the engine arrives in the tangent universe, it would kill Donnie and he could never fix the problem that the engine's presence creates. The manipulated body of Frank (Who has already been killed by Donnie in the real universe) is sent to help Tangent Donnie escape death and perform all the tasks listed above so that he can send a "replacement" engine back to the real universe.
The world that most of the movie takes place in contains one too many engines (Because real Donnie sent it there). By sending an engine from the tangent universe (Oct. 30) into the real universe(Oct 2.) he balances things out. Since the universe is no longer compromised by an artifact (The engine that kills him is from the tangent universe, the engine from the real universe has perished with the tangent universe and was replaced by the tangent engine) Donnie isn't needed to restore order and so he's free to die and avoid the pain he would bring to Frank, Gretchen, and his family.
The engine that hits him in the end, is the same engine we see him send thru the portal.
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Post by gretchen on Oct 12, 2004 18:04:20 GMT -5
buu.
this is the third time i have read this.
you need to stop.
now.
we will read your goddamn post. i already responded to it. there is no need to flood the boards.
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Post by rightfielder21 on Oct 12, 2004 18:05:16 GMT -5
I am kindly ask Buu, to delete the other three and leave it only in one...
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Post by Buu on Oct 12, 2004 19:47:35 GMT -5
"Did Donnie send the original engine into the primary universe? What happened before the film?"
This is the first thought expressed in the thread. I think my post directly relates to this thread.
Fucking Board Nazis.
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Post by drfisher on Oct 13, 2004 9:21:35 GMT -5
What is a "fucking board nazi?" And maybe you should be politer to new members who maybe don't know their way around the board yet.
Maybe we are not all as fantastic as you and have not been able to read a million threads before posting. There are many people in the world who all come up with the same idea. You do not own a theory or idea.
Maybe you should learn some humility and respect for other people before posting again.
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Post by gretchen on Oct 13, 2004 10:02:33 GMT -5
drfisher, are you talking to me?
because if you are i think you are wrongly accusing me of something.
buu's post was the first one i read and responded to on this board yesterday. and then i proceeded to see it SIX MORE TIMES on the board.
there was no need for buu to flood a board that gets daily activity. it's very frustrating to someone such as myself who tries to keep this place neat and direct new members to the proper place. i was absolutely polite to buu at first, and as you will learn from everyone else here i am very polite and helpful to new members.
buu said that there wasn't much activity on this board, and made a comment about some posts i as well as others have made, meaning that buu HAD been reading around and KNEW we have daily access, and no mod to clean up after us. buu continued to be insulting to our members when we expressed our distress at the multiple posts. again, we do not have a moderator, and it's very frustrating to deal with something like this.
buu did not have to come on here and be disrepectful of long time members, proclaiming it's theory blew any one ours away, and that we were "owned". now i think THAT is someone who needs to learn a little humility and respect before posting again, don't you?
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Post by drfisher on Oct 13, 2004 18:00:38 GMT -5
I did not see any of the postings you refer to and I apologise for my hasty posting. All I saw was the one posting.
My apologies.
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