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Post by ProvidencePortal on Aug 15, 2005 14:16:26 GMT -5
I'll have to rewatch, because I have such a strong feeling that the good doc isn't just bouncing Donnie's own terms back at him. If it's as you say, your proposal goes a lot longer than mine does to explain her position. Final point on what she knows: I suppose what I'm digging around is the idea that she seemingly has knowledge of the LR cycle that goes above the base, lizard motivation the other MLs seem to have -- that is, something that pushes them, but of which they're not aware of beyond a tug in their brain's fear center.
To the point: she shouldn't know about the sky opening up (i.e., the rift, though I understand you're saying Donnie says it first). She certainly shouldn't be able to relate that idea to the larger cycle if the she's out of the standard ML mold -- what the hell do they know about it, other than they're scared and they have weird urges to make Donnie do things even they don't understand. And maybe most curious for me: I don't think she should be able to talk about what comes after the sky opening up -- EXACTLY because of your point. MLs, if they know anything, know they're threatened in their own universe. They don't seem to have any idea that something lies beyond. So the doc should not be able to talk about the post-LR cycle hangover the MLs will experience when they return to the PU (that is, "being left with your own memories) to which that quote seems to refer, at least in my interpretation.
Just so. My question -- which has evolved some, but which I believe has had a thread of sameness throughout -- remains: what is within the grasp of the ML. If it's finite, how do we explain the seeming direct knowledge some folks in the TU have about the cycle (the professor being one of them most would agree on ... the doc being one I'd include in the question).
Thanks for the great conversation, BB. It's an intriguing topic.
edit: deleted some extraneous quote tags
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Post by Bigboy on Aug 15, 2005 15:25:31 GMT -5
From the Stainless Steel Rat transcript: - I'm pretty certain that SSR did a good job; Donnie defines the terminology. So I'm sticking to my guns here - Thurman is using his own terminology to appeal to his rational self, Any dual meaning is for Donnie's benefit and at the behest of the manipulator(s) - I don't believe that Thurman is aware of the wider significance of what she says. I'm not so sure that "If the sky were to suddenly open up there would be no law. There would be no rule. There would only be you and your memories… the choices you’ve made, and the people you’ve touched. If this world were to end there would only be you and him and no-one else." actually tallys all that well with the "Wake Up" montage. You can pick out "You and your memories" and find a correlation, but in the overwhelmingly negative context of the rest of the paragraph it doesn't seem right - especially considering that the successful PU "wake up" is the goal of all ML, even if they are not aware of it. To me the quote speaks of chaos and madness, the ultimate end of progressive introspective and retrospective obsession. He's a depressed young man - depression is often a result of over analysis of choices you regret, and the percieved negativity of your relationships. The notion of existing with nothing but those feelings, with no support but your own delusions is nothing short of a description of Hell. IF she has some knowledge of the LR cycle and the "sky opening" refers to the portal the artifact travels through - then it seems backward to portray the event so negatively. if it refers to the corruption->black hole->oblivion path, then it's equally odd to portray ANYTHING afterwards. Whatever signifcance we read into what she says it is obvious that she considers Frank an adverse influence on Donnie, which would seem counter to any special knowledge of the mechanics of the TU. In fact looking at it now, the only thing that she actually did that helped him on his path was telling him about the placebos - telling him that he isn't insane. All this suggests to me that the ML have no significant insight into anything in the TU. (With the exceptions of R.Sparrow - for obvious reasons, and Monnitoff - I've gone in to that subject elsewhere.)
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Post by ProvidencePortal on Aug 15, 2005 18:06:24 GMT -5
Smart, considered and well-researched approach, Big -- thank you for taking the time to build it and share it. I certainly can see every point you've made as being supported by the text. I must have been going on sense and incomplete recall in thinking about the doc's insight. I think you're right that interpretation of her comments is intrinsically subjective; for instance, it sounded to me like the "sky opening up" was suggestive of the PoTT's "black hole," and not at all lined up with the saving-graces of the artifact being returned.
But, being as I have only instinct or an itch and you've offered nicely substantive context, I'll retract the question of whether the doc knows more. Sounds like a mystery no longer!
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Post by Bigboy on Aug 15, 2005 18:29:15 GMT -5
Good to get a decent exchange going! SSR's transcript is of the Theatical cut - so it's entirely possible that I'v skipped over something significant from the DC...
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Post by Aloysius on Oct 13, 2005 8:21:29 GMT -5
I only saw this film for the first time last night, great film and I've just spent hours reading your forum. Dr Thurman still puzzles me. It's been said on this thread that Dr Thurman considers Frank an adverse influence on Donnie. But if this were the case I can't believe that she would give him placebos.
Now, if Dr Thurman DIDN'T have explicit knowlege about the TU etc., then she would diagnose Donnie as an almost certain paranoid schizophrenic, and would know that a large proportion of adolescent paranoid schizophrenic sufferers cease having hallucinations with appropriate medication. Holding back on such medication can easily lead to the sufferer harming their self and/or others. Giving placebos in such a case would is extremely unusual and dangerous and it would seem it was a very conscious decision on her part.
BUT, the thing that really puzzles me is that Donnie was already on the medication at the start of the film, BEFORE the TU split from the PU. Presumably Donnie was on placebos already. If Dr Thurman was a ML and was already being manipulated into giving Donnie placebos thus paving the way for a relationship with Frank, does this mean that ML can be manipulated BEFORE the split with the TU, and hence in the PU ?
I hope this makes sense - like I said I only saw it last night so I am a Donnie Darko beginner! - Aloysius
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GrandpaDeath
Junior Member
All around me are familiar faces ...
Posts: 55
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Post by GrandpaDeath on Oct 13, 2005 15:25:10 GMT -5
... the thing that really puzzles me is that Donnie was already on the medication at the start of the film, BEFORE the TU split from the PU. Presumably Donnie was on placebos already. If Dr Thurman was a ML and was already being manipulated into giving Donnie placebos thus paving the way for a relationship with Frank, does this mean that ML can be manipulated BEFORE the split with the TU, and hence in the PU ? - Aloysius Nice post, Aloysius (my late father's middle name, BTW). Welcome to the Darko side. You say "presumably," Donnie was on placebos at the start of the film, in the PU, and that's the crux of my question: How do we know Thurman is telling the truth about the placebos and isn't just being manipulated into lying to Donnie, to help him believe in Frank's existence. In other words, is Thurman part of the ensurance trap?
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Post by Bigboy on Oct 14, 2005 10:08:50 GMT -5
Certainly her actions as ML are meant to help Donnie along the path of the Ensurance Trap (even though she won't know it).
RE: Hallucinations - We have no reason to believe that Donnie showed any signs of hallucination in the PU. Frank (MD) only exists in the TU, and we actually see the councilling session that Donnie mentions him to Dr Thurman for the first time, so I don't see any reason for this to point to manipulation pre-TU. Also it's worth mentioning that while hallucination is a symptom of schizophrenia, it is not a symptom exclusive to schizophrenia - there are many other known psychological, pathologocal and pharmicological reasons for hallucination, sleepwalking etc. (all of Donnies symptoms pre-TU and TU really), and mis-prescribing drugs can to more harm than good. So by prescribing placebos and persuing a psychological remedy rather than a chemical one was probably her choosing to err on the side of caution (in the PU). THis probably applies in the TU too, but any convincing she needed to maintain the non-drug treatment, even in light of disturbing new symptoms, can be put down to her ML status.
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Post by Aloysius on Oct 15, 2005 19:59:45 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies. I had certainly never considered that she may have lied about the pills being placebos. As to Darko's psychological condition back in the PU, I guess it's true that we don't know precisely. I guess above all he needed to be a good candidate for a LR - it would make sense that a good LR would be someone who already feels somehow detached from the everyday world, but not necessarily someone with a specific disorder such as schizophenia. - Aloysius
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Post by Mercer on Feb 21, 2006 11:48:31 GMT -5
i think in a way that frank is sort of in the role of god..... not saying that god is horrible and would want ppl to do bad stuff.....i unno...it just sorta seems like that to me What makes you think frank is bad krank never makes donnie kill any one and frank actually saves the world by guiding donnie.
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Post by elizabeth on Mar 2, 2006 15:13:59 GMT -5
You and Him=Donnie and Frank or Donnie and God? Dr Thurman seems to make a lot of questions and comments about God to Donnie.Could it be that with that line she is talking about God and not Frank? Or maybe she is trying to say that when the end is near for every human being(the world comes to an end-your world!)the only thing you are left with is memories. At that moment nothing else matters.It's just you and whatever you believe in as a bigger meaning,as a reason for your existence and your choices in life.So if you believe in demon-bunnies,it will be what you'll face at the end.Or you can choose to believe in something else,something that will give you the peace you'll need.Everyone has a different 'Him'..
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Post by Carrie on Dec 9, 2006 11:17:58 GMT -5
I hope I did not imagine this, but doesn't Dr. Thurman suggest to Donnie's parents an increase in his medication? I've been trying to think of explanations for this, given that she states later in the film that the pills are placebos. I've thought of a few possibilities, but I am afraid it may have already been discussed (although I did search for it and didn't find it). Assuming they are placebos at the point in the film where she suggests the increase (which could be debated), maybe she just wants to placate the parents? What I mean is, if she is the manipulated living, maybe on some level she doesn't want Donnie to be medicated, as it might interfere with his mission. Maybe she wants the parents to think she is going to get Donnie's behavior under control so that they don't send him to an institution or something, which again might interfere with his mission. Or maybe I'm just REALLY reaching. Anyway, if his parents are also manipulated living, I guess they wouldn't really want him medicated either. Hmmm. Unless she was originally giving him real medication at that point in the movie and then switched to placebos later... why? Because of the ML thing again? Anyone have any opinions? Well, before I go, let me just say I LOVE this forum. Much thanks to all the creators and posters for enhancing my appreciation (and obsession) with DD.
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Post by Bigboy on Dec 9, 2006 15:19:05 GMT -5
I'd say the simplest explanation is that they were always palcebos; if the placebo effect did not seem to be having much impact, then the increase in dose may have been an effort to bolster or trigger the placebo effect. Telling his parents that the drugs are real, and about the dose increase, would serve to reinforce Donnies belief that the drugs were real.
Evidently the techniqu was not effective, as she decides that telling him the truth may be more help.
(Having said all that she's clearly being manipulated - whilst what she does is valid, it does seem somewhat skewed in delivery)
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Post by Bryan on Dec 12, 2006 1:10:45 GMT -5
Ok, here's my interp. of all the questions u guys are asking which are really good questions and if it was understood so easily would it be worth watching so numerously and would it be as deep of a movie?:
If the world would end it would leave only him and frank; Who where the only 2 people to die (besides the girl) so basically the movie leads up to why frank dies , and that donnie chooses death because he finally finds the meaning of love and happiness and would rather let her live because of his love then to live himself because he found what he's been searching for the whole time. And he's afraid of "Everyone dies alone" but at the end he's laughing and smiling, because he chooses that its his time and that he found his happiness, and that he's already had sex; "whats the point of living if you aint got a dick" hence the subtlety of his halloween costume (a skeleton).
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Post by Ayashae on Dec 12, 2006 14:14:12 GMT -5
I wrote some other posts about this topic, but here i go again I think Donnie doesnt choose death because he's already met love and sex and happiness...after meeting such things one should choose life to enjoy them to the fullest! Donnie chooses death because doing that, he saves the universe from collapsing. If his death wasnt necessary to save the world, then he'd do it to save Gretchen. This explanation should be more complex, but I think it is the reason briefly. But this movie can keep us thinking about endless number of explanations...I love it ;D
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Post by thepretender on Dec 20, 2006 2:25:20 GMT -5
I feel the same way...I still go back to my original feeling about how this movie reminds me of It's a Wonderful Life. Clarence the angel shows George what life would have been like if he hadn't been born, Frank, the Bunny, shows Donnie what life would have been like if he had lived (longer).
Everyone of us has (will have) an end of the world moment...the chances that we will die alone are much greater than dying with a slew of other folks.
I love your quote from Adaptation It prompts a lot of thought.
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