An obvious clue that I totally missed...

[Reed]

I think the directors cut made it clear about future manipulation, but there was a pretty strong clue in the original movie that I completely missed. I hate it when I do that!

During the party, Donnie's shrink calls, trying to reach his mother. Why?

You could just say that she was concerned now that she knew that Donnie vandalized the school and burned a house down. But, she knew that before for at least a day ort two. By not telling the police or his parents, she was acting unethical and unprofessional.

So why did she call his house that night, during the party? Because at that point, it was too late for her to make a difference. The mother was out of town, nobody was going to answer the phone, etc. Once it made no more difference to the outcome, the manipulation of her behavior stopped. She then realized that she wasn't acting professionally, and called to tell Donnie's mother what was going on.

[Bigboy]

I think you may have that backwards; as a medical professional she is obliged to keep Dr-Patient confidentiality. Whilst it would be proper to report his crimes to the police, she's not obliged to, and the 'confession' Donnie gave was given in a hypnotic state and would not be admissible as evidence anyway.

The point here was that she was manipulated by these future beings to take the actions she did by making a report to the police. The phone call to the parents, whilst ethically on the fence, was largely for the audience's benefit.

[Reed]

bigboy said:

I think you may have that backwards; as a medical professional she is obliged to keep Dr-Patient confidentiality. Whilst it would be proper to report his crimes to the police, she's not obliged to, and the 'confession' Donnie gave was given in a hypnotic state and would not be admissible as evidence anyway.

The point here was that she was manipulated by these future beings to take the actions she did by making a report to the police. The phone call to the parents, whilst ethically on the fence, was largely for the audience's benefit.

Actually, a psychiatrist hearing about a crime like that is legally required to inform the authorities. Confidentiality does not extend to criminal behavior (she's not a priest). And certainly, she should have talked to the parents earlier.

[Bigboy]

I'm not sure, but however you look at it her TIMING is certainly manipulated to reinforce the ensurance trap...

[ProvidencePortal]

reed said:

Once it made no more difference to the outcome, the manipulation of her behavior stopped.

I'm not sure it applies to the good doc, but I do find it an intriguing question to ask: are MLs manipulated all the time, or just when their time-spears cross Donnie's? Is there some point at which they're not being manipulated?

My sense is, the manipulation occurs at the personal level in degrees. You may have a low hum in the back of your brain, a slight discomfort, an itchy disquiet that things just aren't all right. On the other end of the spectrum, you might feel a compulsion on the order of a directive -- talk to Donnie about the skies opening up, or fall madly in love with him and have sex, despite the fact that you believe your deranged and estranged father has at last tracked you down and killed your mother.

But I think we also have to acknowledge that there's a chess-game-level manipulation going on, one happening over the heads of the individuals, where events are doing the guiding, like dominoes. For instance, the logic line "Win a contest --> mom takes sis on a trip" meets "olders sis gets into college" and, voila, you have "older sis throws a party --> Donnie gets laid."

This second level feels more like backdrop puppeteering to me ... something that might go unnoticed, but would never actually go away. Which would mean the doc's phone call is manipulated; maybe just the reasoning -- its effect on the string of dominoes -- is unclear to us.

Thoughts?

[Twinkle Twinkle Killer Kane]

So why did she call his house that night, during the party? Because at that point, it was too late for her to make a difference. The mother was out of town, nobody was going to answer the phone, etc. Once it made no more difference to the outcome, the manipulation of her behavior stopped. She then realized that she wasn't acting professionally, and called to tell Donnie's mother what was going on.

that's a valid reading: that the dr. has shaken off her being manipulated and come to her senses, resolving to do the right thing.
also, the dr.'s phone call may function as a message to Donnie (indirectly or directly), to let him know that the noose was tightening. that is, events were drawing to a conclusion, time was running out. perhaps indeed the manipulations were weakening; the police were closing in.

(the absence of usual police activity is unusual: they don't take fingerprints off the ax handle; we don't see them interviewing the students. they are lurking in the background, not as directly involved with the main characters as one might reasonably assume. a house burns down in a neighborhood where a known arsonist lives but we don't see one knock on the door. of course, the police are manipulated too.)

are MLs manipulated all the time, or just when their time-spears cross Donnie's? Is there some point at which they're not being manipulated?

seems obvious the obvious cases: sit next to the cutest boy in class; you've been taking placebos; the lax police work; when in a situation w/ Donnie or another connected to Donnie.
still, doubtful the manipulations would coerce anyone to do what they would be genuinely opposed to (sort of like under hypnosis).
the teacher's remark might have been something she would think but not ordinarily say aloud; the manipulation pushed her to say it. Frank kills Gretchen but still in the context of an "accident", contrasted w/ Donnie's deliberate shooting of Frank. couldn't Gretchen like Donnie because, to her, Donnie is likeable? not every motion or word need be the result of contrivance, just the ones that end in nudging Donnie closer to fulfilling his role.

[Twinkle Twinkle Killer Kane]

Frank kills Gretchen but still in the context of an "accident", contrasted w/ Donnie's deliberate shooting of Frank.

to clarify: Frank was manipulated to drive his car through that space at that time, simultaneously occupied by Gretchen, but he did not willingly commit vehicular homicide.
Donnie, with open eyes, chose to shoot and kill Frank.

we never learn the mechanism of manipulation (nor, of course, the identity of the Manipulator); how are the manipulated lead/pushed to do what they do?
that there is a mechanism, whatever it is, would tend to weaken the concept of "Future Scientists" as Manipulators. if they could remotely manipulate people, why not go directly to Donnie and, in an instant, make him rip that plane engine off and slam it through the wormhole? why mess around w/ complicated, games of interdependence (dominoes?) w/ the existence of the universe at stake? unless that is their perverse game. (guess they could be "aliens" or just ordinary malicious people)

so what else? angels whispering? murmurs from the collective unconscious?
would be a hoot if the Manipulated were being done so by their counterparts in the Primary Universe (!).

this is off topic but at what point does Donnie pick up on future events? when does he begin to know what's coming? he knows to go to and bring the gun to Roberta Sparrow's house; are there any earlier instances? when does he first figure that he's stepping onto a link leading him to the next link?

[Bigboy]

that there is a mechanism, whatever it is, would tend to weaken the concept of "Future Scientists" as Manipulators. if they could remotely manipulate people, why not go directly to Donnie and, in an instant, make him rip that plane engine off and slam it through the wormhole? why mess around w/ complicated, games of interdependence (dominoes?) w/ the existence of the universe at stake? unless that is their perverse game.

Isn't that the difference between manipulation and control?

If the mechanism was one of control then I'd agree with you - but evidently it isn't. Physical interaction seems to be impossible (possible exception of portal creation), and their mental control is limited to suggestion - hence 'manipulation'. Their control of the mind seems to be significant, but unreliable enough to be necessary to appeal to Donnie consciously and drug free.

so what else? angels whispering?

It would seem backward to follow the first argument with divine intervention - if god and his hoard can be fallible enough not to just remedy the situation instantaneously, then why wouldn't some future tech be equally/more fallible?

would be a hoot if the Manipulated were being done so by their counterparts in the Primary Universe (!).

Oddly enough I've gone there too : Here and Here

[ProvidencePortal]

Twinkle said:

doubtful the manipulations would coerce anyone to do what they would be genuinely opposed to (sort of like under hypnosis). not every motion or word need be the result of contrivance, just the ones that end in nudging Donnie closer to fulfilling his role.

I don't see anything wrong with this take on the parameters of manipulation (in fact, it feels sensible to me). But I'm not sure I see evidence in the movie to support it, either.

I think my sense of the manipulation as consuming, omnipresent, dreadful comes from the PoTT's description of MLs. They seem tormented and frightful to me ...

"Those surrounding the Living Receiver, known as the
Manipulated, will fear him and try to destroy him."

"They are prone to irrational, bizarre, and often
violent behavior. This is the unfortunate result of their
task ..."

"...The Manipulated Living will do anything to save
themselves from Oblivion."

That last one, more than any other quote, is what I think is guiding my thinking. It feels like cold-sweat stuff ... hanging-from-a-cliff sort of terrified urgency. If a fear of "Oblivion" (with emphatic capitalization and all!) is driving the MLs -- if that's the essence of their manipulation, conscious or not -- than I find it hard to believe they ever shake loose of it and "return to their senses."

I'm extrapolating and postulating, of course. But if that dread is what it's like to be manipulated, I have to assume that all MLs are MLs all the time. It's unrelenting until the LR does his duty.

This for me is why the doctor's call continues to be perplexing. I've often wondered, how does it advance Donnie toward his destiny? So I happen to like very much Twinkle's suggestion that it's a reminder that the "noose is tightening." The end for me certainly has the feeling of things shrinking, squeezing, collapsing and falling in all around Donnie. The accident, the shooting, the police ... time and options are drawing closed around one last little hole: the portal and his purpose.

It reminds me of Alice being chased by the Queen and her cards back into the "real world" from Wonderland. Maybe another interesting parallel with that rabbit story ...

[Twinkle Twinkle Killer Kane]

"Those surrounding the Living Receiver, known as the Manipulated, will fear him and try to destroy him."
"They are prone to irrational, bizarre, and often
violent behavior. This is the unfortunate result of their
task ..."
"...The Manipulated Living will do anything to save
themselves from Oblivion." *

actually, i don't see much of this in the film, save for the odd behavior. rather than trying to destroy Donnie, or save themselves from oblivion, the Manipulated seem to smooth the way for him to get to the point of obliterating the TU, and of course everyone in it, themselves included.
*unless these Manipulated are some reflection of those in the PU.

my impression is one of people acting, in most respects, "normally" except for those strange moments of blurted words and impulsive actions.
have you ever wondered why you did or said something out of character or in the "wrong" place? upon reflection you can see what purpose it may have served, possibly for another person. this need not be construed as externally "manipulated" behavior; could stem from your own subconscious or intuitive sensitivity to another's needs or wants. still, afterward you felt moved through paces not entirely of your own choosing. this has happened to me and is what comes closest to my sense of the Manipulated characters.
they serve like gates in a pinball machine, closing off or opening options leading Donnie to a singular position.
____________________________________________________

Quote:so what else? angels whispering?

It would seem backward to follow the first argument with divine intervention - if god and his hoard can be fallible enough not to just remedy the situation instantaneously, then why wouldn't some future tech be equally/more fallible?

guess i'm just dissatisfied w/ Mr. Kelly narrowing down all the possible explanations to this one (Future Scientists), which he does on the DC. he's also quite adamant about Donnie's mental health. it takes a lot of the mystery out of it but it's his picture.
not an issue of fallibility, more free will, which may exist in either case; just seems less likely that humans/aliens would allow people to make their own choices in this context.
does the Artifact itself convey Living Receiver status on the one closest in proximity to its arrival? or is it "guided" to The One most likely to successfully fulfill that role?

[13y oldddf fan]

i think that the manipulated dead are a direct string from the manupiulater(s) as granma death stood exactly in the right place to make frank kill gretchen.

and why was it the dead frank that guided donnie through the tangent universe?