Time traveling Frank and everything else

[schizophrenia]

I didn´t see the director´s cut version until a week or so ago, and I always presumed that in the end Donnie was laughing because he did not walk the path of god. (Pre-determined, not saying that God doesn´t exists.) However reading these posts and the PoTT has raised many interesting questions, regarding not only the movie, but also general philosophical questions easily debated because of the very concrete basis the movie gives. I decided to put all my questions/theories in on thread because it touches alot of the subjects discussed in several threads scattered in different categoriess around the board. If it gets to messy I´ll just move the discussion to the appropriate thread, if (hopefully, when I get a response. These are comments mainly to issuess debated by Bigboy and ProvidencePortal in multiple threads I´ve read the past days, but I´ts pretty general so everyones thoughts on this are most welcome.

Ok:


First I´d like to addresss the issue of Frank traveling freely in the 4th dimension. Bigboy, I´m too much of a dimwit to understand your schematics, so my questions here may already be accounted for. But if the Bunny can travel through time as he will in the TU, then he will have no chance of failure because he does not have 28 days to fix the problem, but all eternity to figure it out. So in TU then, Donnie will actually be traveling through the Bunnie´s channel/path. Frank is God in the TU. As to the speculation of it being "the One true God", I mean whats up with all the theatrics? Why would God want to fuck with Donnie's head like that, a corpse in a bunny costume? And if Donnie made the wrong "choice" he would simply go back to add another function (in lack of a better word) to make him (Donnie) change his mind. Why would God go to all this trouble to enlighten Donnie to something he would´ve discovered as soon as the jet-engine crushed him anyway. Showing him all this and take him away from the only place he could put his "discovery of goodnesss" to good use?


Free will is always constricted, through heritage and environment. (I don´t know the english wording for this, but it´s commonly used in the evolution theory.) So the only way to exoneratee God here would be if he simply put in a few more things inDonnie'ss life, like him meeting Gretchen. So in the end Donnie is making an informed choice of sorts. Whenever we make any choice what things leads us to making this choices. Is it our previous experiencess who makes us who we are, and tells us how to act. For example: If you were "outside" time, and could see all of time stretched out before like a picture, every split second will "always exist" for you. If you chose to focus on a specific place in time, a persons life from birth to death, for example an untimely death through suicide! Would you in interfering with this persons life by adding or removing a factor which made this person as an example commit suicide, make you constricting or adding to this persons free will, by giving him/her more references. One choice a person makes often excludes another. Later one may see things from a different perspective, and utter, "had I only known this or maybe that I may have acted differently".


So while your interference may have led this person to act differently, by not removing anything, but by adding something, then would you not simply have given this person another choice thus giving him a better possibility to make a (more informed or unbiased) decision of what to do? Providing that you have no personal interest in the final outcome of course. By the way, if there is absolute free will, and time is a dimension (which it is in DD.) would it not exist an indefinitee amount of parallell universes containing each and every thinkable outcome of any living things possibilities? How could there be a linear flow of things (in time, observing it, like Frank in TU) in the case of free will?

In most cases you are also able to deduct with some accuracy the possible outcome of a hypothetical act. This will also help in making your decision. Also, is a thing "good" if you had good intentions only that the outcome was bad or vice versa? What constitutes a Good thing? If there is a moral at all, somethings that are alwayss right and alwayss wrong. It seems to me, and to most people I guess, that kiddie-porn is a bad thing. But if theres no God to say whats right and wrong then it is up to each and everyone to make up their minds of what is right and wrong, and no one can claim that their moral and ethical values are more "correct" than others. If Donnie had not been given the opportunityy to love and be loved, he might have decided against saving the world, because he could only see the shitty side of things. The hypocrisyy of Jim C. and his school for one thing. Where if you don't accept things aren't just black and white, you get punished. Seems to me that the only people who are willing to do this are the ones with the greatest fear themselves. Not the dude with the mullet and his friend, who seems to be mostly assholes, but the school and much of society where Donnie lives in general. People know this, but pretend they do not, so they don`t have to face the inconvenience of "cleaning" it up.

Uhm..in any case. Is it possible for Bunny-Frank to jeopardize his own existence? Shouldn´t his "reason" or "birth" lie outside the world in wich he operates, because if it´s a time thing he would not have existed in the first place? Would he not have destroyed himself by "outing" the destiny of TU Donnie? More on this later as I stumble onto the same problem when Donnie hurls the engine back to PU. On a side note: MDFrank could not have been created by Donnie shooting him (in the TU we know, at least.) Following this logic you can also say that humans went back in time and created the Universe, as I see it. (Kind of an inverted Grandfather paradox.) I believe it was none other than capt. Jean Luc Picard who did exactly this in TNG episode "All good things". If you have multiple Universes where things doesn´t necessarily (or it cant) happen the same way , this is apossibilityy.


The Engine(s):

Why is Donnie needed to tear the engine from the plane in TU, when no one was needed to do so in the event in PU? The only reasonable explanation I can come up with is that he does this moments or minutes before the actual event takes place in PU, this closes the wormhole in time so that the plane in PU never looses its engine. If the engine had been the reason for the TU being created, then Donnie by making sure it (PU engine) never fell would have made sure it never happened. Grandfather paradox, I think. But since there seems to be generall consensus that the TU came into beingsomem time before this, what now? I think Bigboy asked the question what if an artifact doesn´occur? Well, what if all is peachy,(Stable TU) and this was in fact Donnie´s time travel? It´s been speculated that Sparrow, may have had her facts wrong before.
What if Donnie secured his life in this "side-tunnell" while perishing and saving everyone else in the PU. Could this be true for Sparrow as well? Or else he must have made sure somehow that the TU never spawned in the first place, but this again is problematic. Grandfather paradox?


Ok, some of this may seem to stray a bit away from the movie, but they are meant to illustrate the problems I have with the time traveling-Frank. Especially free will.

[Possible Meanings]

Okay. Wow, that was pretty deep. But there's another thing that puzzles me. Since Donnie died, none of the past month would've happened, like Gretchen dying, etc. But since he died, and that would mean none of the past month would happen, that would also mean the turbine wouldn't have gotten sucked into the past. So how could it have killed him at all? If he's dead, the tubine wouldn't fall on his house. The two don't fit. And, why would Frank guide Donnie away from his house that night the turbine fell on his house? Was it so in the end, the turbine would fall on him? Because Donnie kills Frank. Was Frank doing it to save himself? But then, why didn't he just leave him in the house? Because in the end, it turns out the same as it would have if Donnie had been killed in the first place. Another thing is, what if all of that month was just his imagination. Maybe that was all what was running through his head right before he died. And in the song that's playing during the last scene, there's a lyric that says "I find it kind of funny, I find it kind of sad. The dreams in which I'm dying are the best I've ever had." And Gretchen, earlier in the movie, says something about replacing memories. Going back and changing all the dark times into good ones. Maybe that's what he's doing... But... But if that was true, than Gretchen would have never told him that. I don't know. It's all very confusing. I doubt even if the writer of the movie knows what was actually happening. Still, none of this changes the fact that I love that movie. But now whenever I watch it I'll have to start thinking about this again... Oh well.

[Bigboy]

if the Bunny can travel through time as he will in the TU, then he will have no chance of failure because he does not have 28 days to fix the problem, but all eternity to figure it out. So in TU then, Donnie will actually be traveling through the Bunnie´s channel/path. Frank is God in the TU.

Interesting perspective.

Why would God go to all this trouble to enlighten Donnie to something he would´ve discovered as soon as the jet-engine crushed him anyway. Showing him all this and take him away from the only place he could put his "discovery of goodnesss" to good use?

But who says that God has anything to do with it at all?
Even if He does, and we believe that He has ultimate power in this universe, would his influnce be as great in a tangent (aberrant) universe? (That is, not the one HE created...)

How could there be a linear flow of things (in time, observing it, like Frank in TU) in the case of free will?

Maybe it isn't linear? Maybe each "moment" that you describe which has always existed acts like a quantum event - each moment exists in a state of quantum superposition of all possible states until it is measured; ie a choice is made.
So every possible future existsts simultaneously (some more probable than others).
Who knows? The bottom line is that if there is absolute free will, then the universe cannot be fundamentally deterministic. If the univers is not fundamentally deterministic, then God either doesnt exist or plays no part in it.
This is always a sticking point for me - I find it hard to resolve a God who is actively involved with the world and Free will existing simultaneously.

MDFrank could not have been created by Donnie shooting him (in the TU we know, at least.)

It's this what I tried to resolve in the other thread about the Donnie/Frank Paradox. I think that the existence of an outside manipulator, and an infinitly tweakable line of cause and effect would make the emergenceof the apparrent paradox/causal loop possible.

Why is Donnie needed to tear the engine from the plane in TU, when no one was needed to do so in the event in PU?

What event in the PU? We have no reason to believe a matching event occurs. In fact we have evidence that it does not; the phone conversation you can hear on www.donniedarko.com confirms that the PU version of the engine is in active service many, many months after 30th Oct 1988.

Regarding time travel, Donnie does not time travel. He is capable of it; he can open a wormhole between two points in space-time. But he never actually passes through one himself.
The artifact travels between two points of spacetime in separate universes, and while this might technically qualify as time travel, it's not what we usually think of as time travel (i.e. travelling between two pints in time in the SAME universe).
The only character that does timetravel in the classic sense is MD Frank.
The other thing to remember is that the TU is actually a separate universe to the PU, not merely a "temporary" timeline of the PU to be corrected. From this perspective there is no problem of a Grandfather style paradox involving the engine(s).

[shadow09gues]

I watched the movie today with 2 friends. and thats one thing they ...and me.... were very confused about. just like the general story line doesnt even have to happen... i mean why does frank have to lure donnie outside in the first place. would the tangent universe still occur if donnie died in the beginning? because if it still would have occured then it would make sense. he(frank) has to save him(donnie) so he can save the world... because he was chosen to be the living reciever... wow... i just thought that up... sorry. most likely u all will laugh at this post because i'm very unknowledgeable about DD as it is. i've only seen it for the first time about a week ago. and really anything about donniedarko.com .... i mean that doesnt' really have anything to do with the movie if you ask me. i mean its just like everything else EVERYONE says... its all theories... this entire site is built on a foundation of theories, its just what keeps people talking. because there never is "oh yes... that IS what happened" you never know for sure. because its just a movie... but i hate calling it "just a movie" it seems like more to me.

[Bigboy]

When Frank lures DOnnie outside to save him from the engine they are already in the TU (we know this because Manipulated Dead Frank can only exist within the TU; so you're right the TU happens whether he survives the first engine crash or not.

[Aguestperson]

What people need to realise is the cause of the Tangent Universe. Not Donnie avoiding death, NOT the jet engine, not God getting bored. The Tangent Universe was caused by a rupture in the fourth-dimensional construct, (which is basically just dimension of metal and water) - check out the website, they talk about how it's very stable, but if something goes wrong, the 4th-D can bring destruction. It is clear that the TU was already in place before Frank pulled Donnie out of bed, because the Philosophy of Time Travel tells us that an artifact appearing is an indicator that a Tangent Universe has OCCURRED. So, the story basically runs like this:

The rupture in the fourth dimension occurs. Frank appears (at this point it is already the Tangent Universe), leading Donnie out of his bed, and eventually to the golf course. The jet engine falls through the rift onto Donnie's house. He lives. Frank then guides Donnie through the events - basically the entire TU timeline - required for him to realise that everyone (but primarily his girlfriend, who he cared for the most) were doomed unless he used his fourth dimensional powers (primarily telekinesis) to rip off the engine from the passing plane and solve the paradox which would bring about the destruction of the TU, and in turn, the PU (the paradox was the existence of the two engines in the TU, the one on the plane, and the one taken away from the damaged Darko home). Tangent Donnie does just this, but it has one unfortunate side-effect - the engine falls right down on top of Primary Universe Donnie! (By the way, from the moment the screen says October 2, 1988, we stop observing PU Donnie). Many people have different speculations as to why Donnie was laughing at the end of the movie, and just how much he remembered from the Tangent Universe. Some say he laughs because he saved the world and realises he IS sane, and then simply forgot to get out of bed when the engine came crashing down for the last time. Some say he didn't remember what happened, and his laugh was irrelevent to the TU. I personally think back to the Philosophy of Time Travel, where it basically says "The closer you are to the Living Receiver, the more you will remember from the Tangent Universe" and think that if that's the case, the LR must remember close to or all of the events from the TU, and he must laughed at the irony that the woman who everyone thought was insane - Roberta Sparrow - was just as sane as him - completely, and that all of what she wrote in her book was right on target. I think he stayed in bed because he realised that the girl he loved wouldn't even remember most of what went on between them and that he had almost no chance of things working out between them, and because he felt his life was complete after fufilling his role.

[Bigboy]

I think you have it more or less bang-on and many here (including myself) agree with your basic understanding of events, although I'd argue/expand on a couple of minor points;

- It's not clear where the artifact comes from. Certainly it comes from the corruption some how, but whether is is created by the corruption or passes through the corruption from elsewhere is at best unclear.
It evidently does not come from the Primary universe as the website makes it clear that the plane the engine comes from has been in service without incident for years before and after the engine crash, and the FAA are equally perplexed by the engine in the PU as the TU.
One alternative is this idea: The TU is a duplicate of the PU, which implies that at some point there was a copying/duplication process. If during that process an error occurs (such as a duplication) then that error is an artifact in a true sense of the word. Could the engine be a duplication error?

- Whilst the existence of the second engine is paradoxical (in the sense that it's existence is contrary to received opinion), is that semantic property of the engine enough to keep the TU open? Or is there something more tangible about the engine that causes the problem?
(I have no idea about the specifics of that physical attribute - I'm just throwing the idea out there...)

- This is my only major exception to your ideas, but why would Donnie's experience convince him that he had no chance at all with Gretchen in the PU? He may not have superpowers here, but those aren't the things that attracted her to him.
I'd also say that his experiences show him that he can be loved and he can affect the world; that there is so much to live for. If anything the knowledge of all the good that is possible and the relief that the tragedy needn't recur, I'd think he'd have gained a new "Joi de Vivre". Indeed that may be why he laughs at the end...


It's also worth noting that nowhere in the PoTT does it say that "The closer you are to the Living Receiver, the more you will remember from the Tangent Universe". It's not an unreasonable assumption, but it's never explicitly stated.

[ProvidencePortal]

bigboy said:

nowhere in the PoTT does it say that "The closer you are to the Living Receiver, the more you will remember from the Tangent Universe".

Spot on, as I've just reread the text at ruinedeye.com/cd and it doesn't mention any relationship between proximity to the LR and memories of the TU.

... which was tremendously disappointing for me, because when I read the guest post that suggested that relationship, I was really excited.

B, as you note, it's not an unreasonable assumption, and I like what it does to the end of the story. But it's not supported or substantiated.

[shingo]

This is kind of off topic and I hate to interrupt this intellectual flow, but could anyone recommend any good books on time travel and similar theories?

[Living Reciever future sent]

Okay, listen up.

In Microsoft Windows XP, you can "reboot" your system and thereby "travel" back in time to a certain date.

In reality, time travel is not possible, BUT if it was, it wasn't possible to travel BACK in time, but only forward.
SO, Microsoft Windows XP is the only ''thing'' who has made it possible to travel BACK in time.




I don't know what the connection between Donnie Darko and Microsoft Windows XP is, but there IS a connection!!!!!


Email me.

[e-mail]

Ps. Contact me, but only IF you believe in Time Travel.

[Johnny]

Hey, i think you're right! ;D

I once met Richard Kelly OOON t´he street and he told me THE SAME SHIT and were ALL going to DIIIIE! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA SUFFER CHILDREN OF CMALOR!SKWJD!



No, it was just a JOKE.

Actually, it is a pretty good point of view. ;D
But, i don't see the connection between Donnie and Windows .


.. Maybe it's hidden IN the MOVIE?!


Love JOHNYYYY

[Living Reciever future sent]

Omg Johny, are you KIDDIN'?!

Thanx for the repply, but it doesn't help much..


Anyone else?



/Living Reciever future sent

[xXxDoNnIeLoVeRxXx 3]

OmG Living Reciever future sent!

U'R SuCh a GeeK! WiNdoWz Xp? OMG!
ThErE iS No DeEpEr MeAnInG iN DD, tiz JuSt a TeEn MoV!



/*PrincezZz JiLL*

[Bigboy]

U'R SuCh a GeeK! WiNdoWz Xp? OMG!
ThErE iS No DeEpEr MeAnInG iN DD, tiz JuSt a TeEn MoV!

Wow. Seriously the hypocrisy is staggering. A young teen posting in pseudo SMS/L337 has NO right to call anyone else a 'Geek'.


Living Receiver future sent - you mean the restore points rather than rebooting right?
Actually an interesting point - does the universe have a Restore Point, or more to the point is perceived reality a computer simulation? There are some that argue that it almost certainly is.
The argument goes like this:

ASSUMPTION: If a civilisation is capable of simulating a virtual reality, it will. (be it a game/experiment/whatever)

There are approximately 100 Billion stars in our galaxy. For this argument we will take this as typical/Average for all galaxies.

There are approximately 100 Billion Galaxies in the observable universe.

If 1 in 1000000 stars support at least on planet that supports life,
and
if 1 in 1000000 of life supporting planets produce intelligent life,
and
if 1 in 1000000 of those civilisations reach technological maturity

then we would expect there to be 10000 civilisations capable of simulating a reality in the history of the universe.

If that is so there is 10000 in 10001 chance we exist as a simulation (or a 1 in 10001 chance that we don't).


Make of that what you will.

[randolph89]

big boy u r really relay smart man but if there is other life out there and we can enter the 4th dimension we can all be connected. and maybe we can go back in time if we can travel fast enough I'm not sure,but if we r all hear now...cant we enter the tangent in our sleep is that what makes things so vivid. can we have an out of body experience in the tangent. can we get lost in there or possible live there when we die?