|
Post by thepretender on Apr 1, 2007 15:54:11 GMT -5
Thanks Twinkle! I just spent the last 30 minutes trying to research Heidegger...only to realize that I might need about 30 years to be able to put everything into perspective. You can get lost seeing who people have been influenced by and how they have changed and what other parts of their lives have seemed interesting and what their critics have to say about them. All of this led me to eric Hoffer because someone said that he is the greatest philosopher What little I read about him says that he talks about movements and about how some folks get involved in movements because of wanting to be a part of something bigger than themselves. www.erichoffer.net/ This is from that article and it is speaking about a book of his: The True Believer, though, is not solely concerned with the rise of Nazi Germany, but with the origination of all mass movements, destructive or creative. And more importantly, it is concerned with the main ingredient of such movements, the frustrated individual. The book probes into the psychology of the frustrated and dissatisfied, those who would eagerly sacrifice themselves for any cause that might give their meaningless lives some sense of significance. The alienated seek to lose themselves in these movements by adopting those fanatical attitudes that are, according to Hoffer, fundamentally "a flight from the self." I wonder if this description is taken out of context ... I found it upsetting. You don't think he could be talking about both kinds of movements do you? I surely hope he is only talking about the destructive ones! Someone who was to join a destructive movement would have to be someone who does not care about the future... who just sees the means as the part that is fascinating to them... Someone who joins a 'creative' movement would not be taking a 'flight from self' but surrounding himself with others who also have hope for a better future in a humanistic sense I feel as tho I must be reading this article wrong! I'd at least need two hours to figure it out tho...and I don't have those two hours!
|
|
Twinkle Twinkle Killer Kane
Guest
|
Post by Twinkle Twinkle Killer Kane on Apr 2, 2007 12:08:25 GMT -5
it depends. joining a "creative" movement could also be an attempt to lose the self in a crowd, albeit a "good", "constructive", or "positive" one. (emphasis added). in place of "true believer" try the word "fanatic". note that it is not the happy or content or actualized individual drawn to these movements in an effort, aware or not, to "lose the self". (nor does the syllogism trace backward necessarily; not everyone in such groups is seeking to lose their individuality.) i think Mr. Hoffer is referring to those people perhaps w/o a healthy sense of self already established, those who upon a moment's reflection, or caught off-guard, experience a hollowness, an emptiness, not merely in their lives but within their very essence. these people not only lack a "mission" or sense of purpose but are also missing some satisfying idea of who they are and how they fit into the scene around them, grand and small. they can also be very easily led. it has less to do w/hope or its absence, or the future, than it has to do w/immediately finding an identity associated w/a burning cause or a crusade, something larger than the self to latch onto and be absorbed by. it also helps if the goal is realistically unattainable, or if there are a multitude of other goals; what would one do if all the whales were actually saved, all the inferior races actually eliminated? yes, Eric Hoffer=very interesting person; the "people's philosopher"! wish too for more time; perhaps again later? thanks Pretender for this opportunity!
|
|
|
Post by thepretender on Apr 2, 2007 19:35:09 GMT -5
i think Mr. Hoffer is referring to those people perhaps w/o a healthy sense of self already established, those who upon a moment's reflection, or caught off-guard, experience a hollowness, an emptiness, not merely in their lives but within their very essence. these people not only lack a "mission"; or sense of purpose but are also missing some satisfying idea of who they are and how they fit into the scene around them, grand and small. they can also be very easily led. I hope that is who he was referring to. I also think it has to do with those feeling fear and a loss of control in their lives. I think that in these situations...common sense is absent, reality is skewed and they would seek answers from someone who 'appears' to have them. I think it messes with people's minds when they see that good does not prevail always. it has less to do w/hope or its absence, or the future, than it has to do w/immediately finding an identity associated w/a burning cause or a crusade, something larger than the self to latch onto and be absorbed by. it also helps if the goal is realistically unattainable, or if there are a multitude of other goals; what would one do if all the whales were actually saved, all the inferior races actually eliminated? This is hard for me to grasp. There are so many goals out there...I think all of them would be conditional and that in the hands of a sane person the goal would continue to be evaluated as time goes on. People would take into consideration all of the consequences. Uncaring people would not care about the consequences...they would never question themselves after they made up their mind to do something. They would balk at any new information that stands in their way. thanks Pretender for this opportunity! Likewise Twinkle!!
|
|
Twinkle Twinkle Killer Kane
Guest
|
Post by Twinkle Twinkle Killer Kane on Apr 2, 2007 23:04:18 GMT -5
Posted by thepretender on Today at 7:35pm
yes, this is undoubtedly a part of it. they don't see that there is little that can effectively be controlled outside of themselves. fear is rampant at this lack of control and also because the self is threatened and fragile. as mentioned in your quote from the article, these people are "frustrated, dissatisfied, alienated", both with and from themselves and with and from the parts of society that are "wrong", "unfair", "ugly".
.
here is the difference, illustrated rather broadly: you might be active in a group dedicated to preserving some open space, working to prevent houses from being built on it. you recognize this involvement as an aspect of yourself: I care about this, it matters to me, so I will do something about it. you will probably volunteer some of your time, perhaps offer to donate money or special skills of yours to help the effort. the "true believer", however, depends on this involvement totally for their identity: if I don't stay committed to this, if our goal is not achieved, I will be devasted and possibly cease to exist. he or she will be possessed by and obsessed with this one issue, mentally and physically, and will willingly push all else aside, family, personal health, to work for the cause. if you and your group do or do not succeed, you will react one way or another and you will eventually adjust to the outcome and move on. the "true believer" cannot accept failure if it means the dissolution of the group, for such is a loss of the enmeshed self that has become the group and its crusade. it may be just as difficult to deal w/success, because it too means that the work is over. success can also be dangerous because it verifies and endorses the true believer's position as the "right' one. it may not be possible to relax and enjoy: the next mission must be soon agreed upon and launched.
yes, self-reflection is not practiced because it's scary to examine a self that's barely there. new info. is a threat because it could mean a deviation from the clear path already laid before them.
this has all got me thinking about even identifying oneself w/one branch of philosophy or another! i suppose a school of thought isn't necessarily a "movement". still, we paint our self-portraits in the colors we choose. it would seem that the "true believer's" type would result in a monochrome, w/o tone or shade. thanks again Pretender, for the provocation of thought!
|
|
|
Post by thepretender on Apr 3, 2007 8:55:16 GMT -5
the "true believer";, however, depends on this involvement totally for their identity: if I don't stay committed to this, if our goal is not achieved, I will be devasted and possibly cease to exist. he or she will be possessed by and obsessed with this one issue, mentally and physically, and will willingly push all else aside, family, personal health, to work for the cause. if you and your group do or do not succeed, you will react one way or another and you will eventually adjust to the outcome and move on. the "true believer" cannot accept failure if it means the dissolution of the group, for such is a loss of the enmeshed self that has become the group and its crusade. it may be just as difficult to deal w/success, because it too means that the work is over. success can also be dangerous because it verifies and endorses the true believer's position as the "right' one. it may not be possible to relax and enjoy: the next mission must be soon agreed upon and launched. wow...that has me thinking about someone's sense of entitlement...someone who has become one with their goal might feel as though he has a sense of entitlement to that goal coming true and if it doesn't...watch out! It would point to a waste of time, effort and energy...something that some people are unable to deal with. off to work!! catch you later!
|
|
|
Post by ProvidencePortal on Apr 3, 2007 9:59:58 GMT -5
someone who has become one with their goal might feel as though he has a sense of entitlement to that goal coming true and if it doesn't...watch out!It would point to a waste of time, effort and energy...something that some people are unable to deal with. I've been reading this exchange and holding back my weigh-in. I see the sides. But I also think it's easy to identify people as fanatics when their pursuits are unusual. My question is: aren't we all in some way creating our identities based on fabricated goals? Aren't they all sort of silly and consuming, whether they stick out or blend in? Don't we all have irrational definitions of what it means to be fulfilled, given the yawning void where "purpose" ought to be? And, if we perceived that something got in the way of that sense of fulfillment, that purpose ... well, wouldn't any one of us go just about apoplectic? I knew I'd blogged on this, and I found the entry. Here's my take -- very personally delivered in October of 2005, a month before my daughter was born: "I try, but I can't seem to accept that this list of tasks in my dayplanner is life. I can't warm up to considering worrying about getting a loan to finish the basement, so we can move the office downstairs, so the office can become the nursery, so my daughter -- when she arrives -- will have her own room, fully-dedicated ... car repairs ... bill paying ... work, work, work ... compulsory family visits, stripped of fun ... that these banal, boring, stupid things are the squares in the big quilt. It's seems like, more and more, I'm only really living in the in-between space, around all the other stuff ... and the cracks are getting smaller. Isn't is supposed to be the reverse? But then I look around and think, man, everyone else seems so OK with it -- what the hell's the matter with me? Christy is just cruising along. To her it's tick marks on the list: house, house improvements, dog, child ... there's some progression there that's natural and satisfying for her, like it's part of some bigger plan. But I worry that all this focus on the task list and one day I'll wake up dying and think, motherfucker -- you mean I piddled away all my time picking couch coverings at Pottery Barn and making car payments? And that'll be that -- a life of trivialities and nonesuches. The big question in this line of thinking eventually must be: "so what else should you be doing?" And even my imaginings at their most sickly grandiose -- "digging wells in Ghana" or "saving the [WHOMEVER] from [WHATEVER]" -- don't help. Because after all, I think there's something bigger we're all supposed to be doing, as a people. We're ants otherwise. Granted, ants who've blown their sense of self-worth and the importance of individuality into almost its own religion ... but fucking ants nonetheless. I mean, what? I'm going to find soulful satisfaction in volunteerism that comforts a few hundred of the "less fortunate"... or feeds them ... or ensures they're better adjusted psychologically? Why? So they can live lives of misery and isolation like most of the 6 billion other hairless monkeys on the planet? This whole finding a purpose thing feels like polishing brass on the titanic. I think this is why thousands lined up in those horrific phalanxes in medieval warfare, to be ordered from a big horse somewhere to march left, retreat, strike, runforyourfuckinglives ... then to be chopped and punctured and left to bleed out under a pile of other nameless, mouths oh-ohing like fish. Butchery. To us, unfathomable: we wonder, why would anyone give their life so uselessly? I'll tell you. They did it for a sense of purpose. Crusades, invasions, retaking the hill, defending the homeland, beating back the barbarians -- pick someone different and a claim to land, and you can raise an army of the lost who'll take an agonizing death in trade for some hope of significance. Each one of those numbfucks in their loincloths and their terrifed eyes: they traded one miniscule, lost-among-millions, mother-nature-thinks-you're-dirt life, cashed it in for just a hope -- a glimmer of the possibility -- of meaning. And I'm beginning to wonder, am I laughing at them while I stand here in my own formation? I'm looking at the people around me. What's in my hand? Am I holding my checkbook like my blunted short sword, wearing my tie like armor? Are my plans for a settled, successful life my own "taking the hill" story? Who the hell is giving the marching orders, and why am I lined up with everyone else and stamping out into the dust? Am I kidding myself? Or is this really the only way to go out: to snatch at some pretense of meaning, however improbable it is?"
|
|
|
Post by thepretender on Apr 3, 2007 20:21:50 GMT -5
Provi, First off...what the heck took you so long!? ;-)
Provi wrote: >>My question is: aren't we all in some way creating our identities based on fabricated goals?
Oh definitely. I think the level of fabrication is different for each one of us but you are right in that we don't share those same goals with everyone....'everyone' does not concern themself with world peace, the working man, the homeless, eliminating other races, stopping abortion... Who is telling us that these goals are worthwhile? Why we choose to listen to some and not others is the telling part about us...?
Provi wrote: Aren't they all sort of silly and consuming, whether they stick out or blend in?
Do you mean silly because we really don't know the correct goals from the incorrect ones? That we are relying on an internal gauge to tell us?
Provi wrote: Don't we all have irrational definitions of what it means to be fulfilled, given the yawning void where "purpose" ought to be? And, if we perceived that something got in the way of that sense of fulfillment, that purpose ... well, wouldn't any one of us go just about apoplectic?
This is so true. It is so much harder when we are relying on others to carry the same beliefs that we have. You could go into a marriage thinking 'whatever your way of thinking is' and have absolutely no idea if the other person has the same direction as you. (Epsecially if it wasn't discussed) Some people's purpose is that 'love, itself' and don't realize that it is conditional on whatever certain conditions might be. For example...the goals as a couple, to be faithful, to be parents, to be committed, to be supportive of whatever direction the other person wants. It just isn't very realistic unless the discussion was had and both were in agreement. Who is to say that a goal can't change? For even when the goal of one person changes it causes the other person to either agree or decide to distance themselves...many times with that apoplectic moment. *sigh* That is just one horrible example because usually they have both contributed greatly to that goal which at one time was permanent and unyielding. Problem is...things can change.
Provi... Your blog was so honest. I am at that point where the cracks of my time are getting smaller. Plus I'm getting upset that when I think I will have time I am going to be falling apart in all physical aspects. I make sure that I am not denying myself my dreams. That would be horror. I have found that my dreams are fulfilled in being involved in my Union and doing a good job at work and trying to be a good mom and partner to my B/F and keep connected with my family. I get joy from all of that. Time was tho...I got caught up in someone else's goal. It would have been okay if I could see that the goal was heartfelt, but instead I thought it was purely out of selfishness. I decided that I had to leave. Nothing wrong with that persons goal...I just wasn't a part of it anymore.
Even 'this' kind of interaction is so important to me cuz like it or not...we can't deny that our shared communication isn't better than holing up with our thoughts somewhere.
when you said this... "So they can live lives of misery and isolation " it just reminded me that sometimes we think we know what is best for others who are going along their way merrily. When we 'help' them, we might indeed be introducing tham to misery and isolation of a worse kind.
I am only attempting to talk about some of the ideas you have presented. There is just so much more to talk about.
Sometimes I just want to fall back on the most logical meaning and purpose which would be doing our best...with whatever we have...even if it means making poor choices sometimes. Feeling good that we are not ants and that we have a lifetime to make a difference somehow even if it is in the smallest sense. Still better than being an ant. But then again...that is my opinion and I know for a fact I could have done better and could do better in the future. I have learned to be at some peace with my sometime laziness (which might only be in my mind). It's all relative anyway.
Maybe the whole purpose is to be able to live life with the least amount of regret that you can.
I know I'll be back after I think some more about this. It is such a compelling subject.
|
|
|
Post by ProvidencePortal on Apr 4, 2007 8:57:10 GMT -5
I make sure that I am not denying myself my dreams. That would be horror. First, Pretend, just thanks for being you. You're thoughtful, open and egoless. It's so exemplary. I'm taking notes. Back on topic, I pulled out something you said in the quote above. This is what I think I'm talking about when I say, "aren't we all fabricating our own fulfillment." To you, it would be a horror not to live your specific dreams. But where do those dreams come from? Not some tangible, universal truth about what's "right" or what we're here to do. No -- it comes from something you've decided is important to you. That's your cause, and you're totally invested. You'd be horrified to not stay true to it. That's all I'm saying -- that each of us is a fanatic about a pretend dream. In my blog, I offered conjecture as to why we do this, and I continue to wonder. All I can come up with is that having some sense of purpose, even if we know it's wholly without substance or grounding, is better than simply going nihlist and agreeing that there's just no reason to do anything.
|
|
|
Post by thepretender on Apr 4, 2007 8:59:56 GMT -5
This morning I woke up thinking about the ripple effect... In the way that when you are around folks who have positive hopeful moods it can sometimes (hopefully most times) ripple positively on others.
I know that since miss pissy is gone from my work...things are so much better :-)
Only problem is that others are being subjected to her right now. (ugh)
|
|
|
Post by thepretender on Apr 4, 2007 16:02:38 GMT -5
Provi, i guess we were typing away at the same time... I guess I would like to know what your dream is...of course you don't have to tell me...
My own might have the pollyanna syndrome attached to it because I think I could do no better. (without exerting some herculean effort anyway) and possibly that I am afraid of 'the grass being greener' ideas falling through.
I think I would be horrified to be unhappy and therefore I make every effort to be happy...even if it is by conjuring up the bright side of my predicaments as much as possible.
I surely know of other's dreams that I would never want... I can think of some folks in the spotlight and that would get old and being rich would be crap because I might live in fear of losing it.
just some other ideas out there for consideration...
|
|
Twinkle Twinkle Killer Kane
Guest
|
Post by Twinkle Twinkle Killer Kane on Apr 5, 2007 0:34:07 GMT -5
Posted by thepretender on Yesterday at 8:21pm
there is not much to add to this plainspoken wisdom. just getting through an ordinary day, practicing kindness, having patience, can be enough of a mission.
what fulfills us need not be "irrational, silly, and consuming", though others may think so. our identities are the sum of many things, some of them fabricated. if we crumble when one aspect is removed or threatened then perhaps we have invested too much in that area. yes, there is a yawning void; life is an absurd circus, a tale told by an idiot. we can barely keep our heads above the surface in this cesspool of ignorance and filth. given all that, now what? how does one go forward: as a contributor to the insanity or as an oasis of calm decency?
ProvidencePortal, check out a film called It's A Gift, w/W. C. Fields. it's one of the funniest movies ever made (your blog entry made me think of it). your comments remind me of myself at another time. the search for an epic purpose, the need for a monumental significance to this little existence in a minor key, drove and hectored me no end and was the cause of much unhappiness. looking back now, i can see that i was really yearning for notoriety and stardom, if only in my own small corner of the galaxy. i just couldn't die w/o people knowing my name. like this here, parading my intelligence for my own satisfaction and to prove to myself that i'm more than my job, my marriage, my parenthood.
it's all a dream anyway. you row your boat, i'll row mine... merrily, merrily
|
|
|
Post by ProvidencePortal on Apr 5, 2007 7:50:47 GMT -5
I think I must have been unclear. This is simply me trying to talk through something I wrestle with just about every day. I'm not disparaging having a dream -- we all need them. I'm most certainly not attacking you, Pretender, and I never called you Pollyanna -- I love your perspective. I'm not saying my dreams are better than anyone else's -- I think dreams are personal and essential and basically incomparable, though I do think they are in a smile-and-shake-your-head way absurd.
I am not yearning for notoriety or searching for an epic purpose. Instead, I’m responding to a discussion of Hoffer throughout page three of this thread. There was, I thought, a point of view that people being "frustrated individuals" lead to "destructive" movements, but people who have "creative" aspirations couldn't possibly be coming from the same need to have an identity. My thinking was, there’s no such distinction. So I shared my (very personal, moment-in-time) blog entry to illustrate my point of view that there's no difference between the fanatics who lose themselves in causes and this idea of the good us. We're all searching for an anchor. We're all lost in our own causes. And all causes are subjective. In that blog I used as an example of the power of that drive an image of people lined up in phalanxes, directed anonymously and dying horribly. Most or all thought they were living their dream or fulfilling their cause -- even those on opposite sides of the field, with polar opposite causes. And all died like gutted fish.
I wasn't calling that noble. In fact, if that's not absurd, I don't know what is.
What I was sharing was a point of view that suggests there is no "healthy sense of self" by which we can define a good cause or a bad -- there's only a sense. And it's internal. So for me, it’s possible that "just getting through an ordinary day, practicing kindness, having patience" may be nonsensical. But that invalidates neither of our perspectives. It just is. I believe we cannot draw an imaginary distinction between people's motivations when we find their causes unpleasant or unusual. It all comes from the same place "being nice to one another each day" does.
Twinkle, the “ok, how do we move forward?” question is as old as Nietzsche … probably older. And I don’t think everyone has an answer. I’m happy for you if you do, but picking between nihilism and existentialism for me is a daily affair and all about perspective. Most days I believe I can be my own good – and god – in the world. But some days I don’t believe that, and I get caught up in the other side of absurdity, which is: if it means nuttin’, what the hell am I doing here, and why does it hurt so bad? I don’t think sharing that other side is bad or deserving of derision. I think it’s honest, and I hope by admitting that I sometimes struggle with those feelings, other people will feel comfortable admitting that they do, too. None of us has 100% conviction about rowing our own dreams all the time.
Pretend, to answer your question: I think my dream looks something like this: - Enable and encourage my daughter to experience life; embolden her by proving her family is a safety net that will catch her when she makes a leap of faith. Show her trying is the win, not winning. - Learn about being a person. Continue to grow my own perspective; be inclusive of others' points of view and value new experiences, because they're the measure of the worth of my life - Be an example of honesty and candor in a way that liberates those around me; be the first to own something uncomfortable so they, too, can own it. Through my actions, give others permission to think and talk about the full picture … so we can all live fuller lives.
|
|
|
Post by thepretender on Apr 5, 2007 8:54:36 GMT -5
Provi, I don't have time to go into anything {{{work}}} but I just wanted you to know that I never even close came to thinking that you were attacking me or that you had labeled me. I know darn well that my Pollyanna attitide is what saves me on a daily basis and that it's worth is what I have given it.
I'll probably have to say more later but I love what you said about your daughter. Those are wonderful things to encourage. I tried to do that with my son only to add that I wanted him to question authority. Something I wish I had known I could do. Still hung up on the fact that some folks just don't deserve it.
Have a great day...we'll meet up later :-)
Maybe I'll bring along a thermos full of coffee...
|
|
|
Post by thepretender on Apr 5, 2007 18:46:07 GMT -5
Twinkle wrote: "i just couldn't die w/o people knowing my name. like this here, parading my intelligence for my own satisfaction and to prove to myself that i'm more than my job, my marriage, my parenthood."
This struck me, even more since I read Omni's post about Four Eyed Monsters. You should know Twinkle...it isn't just for your own satisfaction...I am getting a lot out of it too. :-)
I like thinking and putting my thoughts out there and reading what other people are thinking. I have things in common with the folks I work with... I have things in common with my family...I don't stay away from them just to be here...this just fulfills another part of my life
There are only so many people that I know of that I could share Donnie Darko with and with them it was a short and sweet wasn't it great? Yeah what did you think about the ending? Wow it really made me think...how about you?
These conversations here are what I wish I could have in person but then it would just be too intense on most folks I think... here we post our thoughts about things that we think others might be interested in and unlike in person conversation we can go back and look at what we have written and the responses (if there were any) or not, but we all know it's out there. Those words are ours and they have defined us in some way.
Last night I was talking to a bunch of folks that I didn't know...the only thing we had in common was that we had kids who might attend the same college. What the heck do you say to them? I would have loved to have ventured off into a conversation about what people think about the importance of giving back to society but I just don't think that would have gone over very well. We just talked about college acceptance and non acceptance and waiting lists and financial aid and while it was nice...I think there are several other topics we could have bonded with...
Let's just face it...we are talkers who like to share information and ideas with each other and who like being able to place our words the way we like them to be.
Sometimes I do go back with 'real people' in my life and have these conversations...I even tell them about the ideas that you all have.
(If they are really good ideas of course I say they were mine...) {{{{{{just kidding)}}}}}}
Provi...today I got caught up in that absurdity...I was really down about last night because I just felt so unfulfilled with all of those people. I felt as tho the words that were coming out of my mouth were just absolutely inane because the dynamics of that group wouldn't have allowed anything but that. I couldn't be the me that you all have come to know... so.... it definitely felt good to have that reminder that even those who always seem to have it together don't and I was just 'doing my best' and that is probably what they were doing as well given the circumstances.
|
|
|
Post by thepretender on Apr 6, 2007 9:10:21 GMT -5
oh...the funnest thing is that on the college's website...I was looking at the page that had the Admissions personnel on it and for some reason each one lists what their favorite movie is...well one of the folks listed Donnie Darko!
|
|