FRANK!!!

[jdext988]

I have been searching and reading and have not been able to satisfy a few questions.

Please point me to a link if these are answered in other spots.

The theory that this is a looping tangent seems to fit. But,

If this is fact: DD make MD-Frank/Bunny when he shot him.

And this is fact: The TU loops at the moment or even seconds before the engine falls into DD's room. (Could be days or weeks too.)

How could MD-Frank/Bunny even save DD in the first place?

DD would be dead every time the loop started at that point.

But with DD dead then he doesn't make MD-Frank/Bunny. Then we have no movie.

My thoughts when I first saw the movie was oh he was dead the whole time and this is like a dream / hallucination before going into the light.

Also I see everyone takes the film bit by bit as perfection and all things fit but what about flubs and mistakes? Can that be what causes these thing not to work and we spend time just reaching and making the parts fit?

After all I am not sure that there is a good explanation for the question above.

Of course I am sure I missed something so please explain. THX!

[dan769]

Ok firstly there is NO looping Tangent Universe (TU).

The moment you stop thinking along those lines everything will start to get a lot clearer.

The idea that the TU loops just adds multiple layers of paradoxes that make it impossible to comprehend. The TU lasts ONE time only from Midnight October 2nd to the moment Donnie sends the engine through the portal.

Knowing this actually makes just about all your other questions redundant now but I’ll explain Frank.

Donnie shoots Frank within the TU thus making him one of the Manipulated Dead. Frank can move through time to any point in the TU and talk to the Living Receiver (Donnie). This is what he does to save Donnie in the beginning, he moves to the point just after the TU had started and lured Donnie out of the house. Frank is only a messenger though, he isn’t physically there and only Donnie can see and hear him.

That’s the basics and as you can see it only has to happen once. Every single event for these things to happen occurs within a single TU.

[twinkle]

the above response by dan769 on Jan 28, 2010, 9:06pm to jdext988 on Jan 23, 2010, 12:30am is well-phrased and i'd like to add a few clarifying comments of my own...

The TU loops at the moment or even seconds before the engine falls into DD's room. (Could be days or weeks too.)
How could MD-Frank/Bunny even save DD in the first place?
DD would be dead every time the loop started at that point.

it's a "loop" only in the sense of an oval or a capsule w/one end of the TU overlapping the PU at Oct. 2. it is not a Mobius strip and does not perpetually cycle back on itself; it does not return to its own origin.
it's generally agreed that the TU splits off from the PU (caused/announced by the presence of the "extra" jet engine) shortly before MD Frank begins speaking to Donnie.
the initial appearance of MD Frank, as a voice, & the branching off or start of the TU are not simultaneous; there is a gap of probably several minutes or at least seconds. remember Donnie talking to Frank outside and Elizabeth arriving home just before the crash; Donnie had to leave the house well before his sister got there or they would have run into each other.
even though it may be a matter of mere seconds, there is still enough time between the start of the TU and the jet engine crashing through the Darko's roof for MD Frank to talk Donnie out of the room.

Also I see everyone takes the film bit by bit as perfection and all things fit but what about flubs and mistakes? Can that be what causes these thing not to work and we spend time just reaching and making the parts fit?

the film is not "perfect" but i think many people here have had a proprietary/protective interest in it and in their beliefs/opinions about it.
for me it's more of an intellectual exercise, seeing how the parts abide by or fall short of an internal logic.
also, i think people tend to "reach to make the parts fit" when it's something they care about, flaws and all.

[JimDEXT988]

I see what you are saying about people on here being financially invested in this film.

But one thing I just can't seem to wrap my head around is the fact that if the TU started moments before the engine fell...

How could MD Frank been created by DD?

If MD Frank can move through time what can he effect? Everything? He knows the future? He knew to save DD? How and why?

Bottom line DD would be dead in this or any other universe before creating MD Frank. It's not easy to survive an engine falling on you.

It just doesn't make sense that MD Frank would know to save DD. How could he since he was supposedly made after saving him?

Unless that happens before the 28th? But the start of the film says it the 2nd. And then proceeds to tell us that is is x amount of time left. So we never go back in time in the film...right?

Oh well my theory that this was a dream fits much better and the theme of redemption and everything else fits even better.

[dan769]

You need to start viewing it is as two separate timelines. Midnight Oct 2nd happens twice effectively, the first time we are within the Tangent Universe timeline. This is where Frank moves through time and saves Donnie.

At the end of the film Midnight Oct 2nd happens again only this time the Tangent Universe has been closed and we are back within the Primary Universe. This time there is no Frank to save Donnie and the engine crushes him.

It’s only in the TU timeline that Donnie can create Frank so once were within the Primary Universe Donnie is on his own.

It’s debateable how much the Manipulated Dead actually know about the impeding disaster. They are definitely wiser to the situation than anyone else. The MD are still being controlled by the higher force here though (most likely God) so there are not in total control of their actions.

Don't look at time from our point of view, as a straight linear line. The MD are masters of time and can step into any point within the TU parameters the same way we would walk through a doorway.

[seph]

Jan 28, 2010 20:06:48 GMT -5 dan769 said:

Donnie shoots Frank within the TU thus making him one of the Manipulated Dead. Frank ... moves to the point just after the TU had started and lured Donnie out of the house. Frank is only a messenger though, he isn’t physically there and only Donnie can see and hear him.

But that's the problem with this interpretation.
Frank (the bunny) preempts not only the jet engine, but also preempts the Tangent Universe itself.
When Frank (the bunny) 'lures' Donnie out of the house, this is not the Tangent Universe. Not only that, but Frank (the bunny) would be the cause of the event.

Personally, I think Frank (the bunny) is a manifestation of Donnie's subconsciousness. (Donnie's mind's attempt to deal with both his guilt of murder as well as remembering the future.) This would thus necessitate the Tangent Universe being numerous loops.

[daniel]

idk about the whole "when frank lures donnie out of bed this is not the TU" thing, because that is totally the TU. But i think there are hints to a looping TU as well... those being:

in the director's cut...the scene where Donnie is at the video arcade with Gretchen playing a racing game...Donnie is explaining to her that he keeps seeing things, sleepwalking, and waking up farther and farther away from his house each successive night...immediately after this statement the camera shows a view of the mountains and the hill that donnie wakes up on in the beginning of the movie...and for that matter the same hill where he is last scene in the TU on Oct 30.
The hill where he originally wakes up in the begining of the movie is the farthest point he has been from his house after sleep walking (this is why the show a clip of it after donnie's statement in the video arcade)...so if he keeps waking up farther and farther away from his house each successive night..this would mean that the beginning of the movie is really equivalent to his last night in the prior TU before it re-set (bc he failed prior). this could also explain why he smiles and laughs in the begining...he has been here before and it seems like de ja vu.
Thus the opening scene of the movie is just after Donnie has failed to send the artifact back, in a prior TU, and time is reset to the primary universe where it will be intercepted by the TU once again and thus another cycle will occur.
This would also explain the thunder in the opening moments of the movie, symbolising that " a storm" has just passed...in the words of Frank and grandma death "storm" = wormhole formation.
Finally this would also explain how it seems like some characters in the TU know what is really going on...like Drew Barrymore...how she looks at Donnie and Gretchen in class and seats them next to each other...she knows they are meant to be together...idk maybe im just crazy tho and one of those ppl who look too far into it. But it does make sense, at least give me that lol.
I will say that he only flaw in my theory is the question of "why would the TU re-cylce and start in the PU one day b4 Frank wakes up Donnie and another TU starts?"...to this i have no answer, and i have spent some time pondering it.

[germaine cornellier]

Jan 22, 2010 23:30:16 GMT -5 jdext988 said:

I have been searching and reading and have not been able to satisfy a few questions.

Please point me to a link if these are answered in other spots.

The theory that this is a looping tangent seems to fit. But,

If this is fact: DD make MD-Frank/Bunny when he shot him.

And this is fact: The TU loops at the moment or even seconds before the engine falls into DD's room. (Could be days or weeks too.)

How could MD-Frank/Bunny even save DD in the first place?

DD would be dead every time the loop started at that point.

But with DD dead then he doesn't make MD-Frank/Bunny. Then we have no movie.

My thoughts when I first saw the movie was oh he was dead the whole time and this is like a dream / hallucination before going into the light.

Also I see everyone takes the film bit by bit as perfection and all things fit but what about flubs and mistakes? Can that be what causes these thing not to work and we spend time just reaching and making the parts fit?

After all I am not sure that there is a good explanation for the question above.

Of course I am sure I missed something so please explain. THX!

[balavurdija]

The fat guy with the lamp present something... dream in the dream (or dream after dream) is only logical sequence for the plot... time travel and other things are just there to confuse; last sentence of the book explain pretty much my previous statement ( I think that fat guy in red trainers present that whole thing as dream; often we dream about people that we only once seen, and in real life we'll never re-remember it - probably some brain anomaly). The fact that at the beginning scene he is in the hills (when he played and spoke with the girl he mentioned every time awaking more far from home) means he already dreamed an dream where he created an rabbit (killing him and stuff happened previously) who will be a main role in next, or additional(dream in dream) dream, remorse dream where he saves him from engine. He was still alive when engine fell that's way he dreamed any imaginary engine in the plot (probably he was aware of it when it hit, but still in sleeping state, or maybe as someone mentioned some things (god related) happened before death (maybe). The guy who made the film is not an "atomic physicist" figuratively saying; he is just director who diminished himself as "brain astronaut" in my eyes, drinking absinthe maybe.

Sorry for my bad English (sentence construction)

[balavurdija]

By last sentence from the book I meant on last sentence of an paragraph presented in the movie!