Twinkle Twinkle Killer Kane
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Post by Twinkle Twinkle Killer Kane on Nov 2, 2006 21:41:52 GMT -5
just to remind the value of sacrifice. that so many movies the hero is a jerk what lords it over all creation. society too the winner grabs the most: cash, fame, shiny objects. to give of oneself, to give UP oneself is weak, for chumps. this movie reminds: greater love has no one than to give one's life for another. the reward the reward the reward is it in this world?
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Post by thepretender on Nov 4, 2006 20:02:13 GMT -5
I think so...and red wine is a perfect example...
;-)
What movies are you thinking of where the hero is a jerk I refuse to watch those!!!
Donnie was pretty sweet on Gretchen and I think he loved his family a whole bunch as well...
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Twinkle Twinkle Killer Kane
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Post by Twinkle Twinkle Killer Kane on Nov 6, 2006 19:45:19 GMT -5
take a look at hollywood and the heroes what shoot guns and their mouths off, who conquer by dominate, who intimidate, confiscate, and eradicate. do i need make a list? yeah man-donnie got love big for the world and his little people, he care for the outcast. this my point. it is in the dying to self that we enter eternal life, not trade up to new suv, own t.v. bigger than entire family, dig? shiraz to you! keep on drinking that holy blood
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Post by thepretender on Nov 6, 2006 21:31:57 GMT -5
LOL!!
I think I do stay away from those movies...
Donnie was the unsung hero...he wasn't out for the glory of what he was doing...
It seemed his motivation was pure...
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Twinkle Twinkle Killer Kane
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Post by Twinkle Twinkle Killer Kane on Nov 6, 2006 22:21:09 GMT -5
yeah thanks. he was on a mission of purity (not far to go; decent kind of guy from start). what did he learn (what was it all for)? when we give up petty demands of the little self we enter onto the path of the larger, true self (the original, universal self that is All, the return). also, comes to us the satisfying of every desire we didn't even know we had. (this is: much reading into; or out of?) some disagree w/ "sacrifice" but w/o is hollow goof. if saint dies alone in forest is glory still
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Post by thepretender on Nov 6, 2006 23:21:42 GMT -5
"if saint dies alone in forest is glory still"
That got me and I sure do hope so...
If a good deed goes unnoticed...it was still a good deed.
I think about every day people who have their 'saintly' unselfish moments. How do they feel if it wasn't noticed, is it wrong for them to have a moment of wishing it was noticed? How does that kind of niceness get passed on from generation to generation? Is someone who merely takes care of themself less than someone who does a good deed now and then?
I think it has to do with what we are capable of and I can't even say why I think that way except that I know we are all different.
Jackson Browne sang
"Nothing survives but the way we live our lives" and I think that has to do with the example we set for others ... especially our children.
Was Donnie's decision based on what he had experienced with his family and with friends?
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Twinkle Twinkle Killer Kane
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Post by Twinkle Twinkle Killer Kane on Nov 7, 2006 11:49:29 GMT -5
yes yes and yes but the glory is not: front page headlines, late night talk show, ghost-written book deal. rather the real thing, of glorious nature. re: "if a good deed goes unnoticed...it was still a good deed" YES and it CANNOT go unnoticed: the doer is aware (usually) and the universe is aware (depending on belief system). yeah, we all want to be noticed; nothing wrong. but you know there are those what trumpet their good works for all to see and approve. this is doing "good" for recompense. nothing wrong to take care of self; first law of survival. at the expense of others, forgetting that others share world, it becomes selfishness, self-centered-ness (does it become wrong?). when we give, it is given us many times over. hard to remember in this world. two more good points from you thepretender: #1-we each are walking talking examples of how to live (some specialize in moron lessons; others show sensitivity training, etc.). this is true person-to-person and ESPECIALLY for children. every moment we model how to be. #2-as the dr. said, we are left only with the choices we've made. even the rationalizations for those choices do not survive. your last question: yes and my guess-discovering all the connections to people and events in the revelation of "destiny". ?your view: is martyrdom the only way? thanks much for good thoughts and exchange.
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Post by thepretender on Nov 7, 2006 20:43:05 GMT -5
>>>>#2-as the dr. said, we are left only with the choices we've made. even the rationalizations for those choices do not survive.>>>
Wow, I never really thought about it that way but you are right... Once you are gone there is no way to defend your actions. I guess that goes the same with inaction and really every choice we make.
Is martyrdom the only way?... What a thought! I am imaging everyone helping everyone else!! I guess each of us has our own contribution to society and it couldn't just be martyrdom for us to get anywhere... Someone has to be a decision maker even tho not everyone is made happy from the decisions. Some decisions are going to require sacrifice (of say money or time) and other decisions are going to require some other kind of sacrifice possibly in the way of hard labor?
hmmm maybe each of us doing our part and not leaving everything up to others is a small example of everyday martyrdom. It would be selflessness but then again usually everyone benefits from a community who works together... giving and taking It's just so much nicer when the balance is fair
It would never be fair for those who are less fortunate for example those who have psychological problems. They also need to be taken care of but that's just another example of how society benefits from taking care of those less fortunate. thanks to you too! You are an eye opener!
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Twinkle Twinkle Killer Kane
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Post by Twinkle Twinkle Killer Kane on Nov 8, 2006 14:11:43 GMT -5
please understand: these words not meant as preaching or any ultimate answer(s); mere experiential learnt and forwarded as such. your comments re: martyrdom (meant also in context of film; sorry ambiguity*). yeah, if we don't worry so much about mineminemine there is enough for all (food, shelter, etc.). this is contrary to survival instinct and too cultural mandate ("...be a happy idiot in my struggle for the legal tender..."). not sure a leader or new laws could fix (can legislate lovingkindness?). teachers have come before with mixed results. if awareness, consciousness, were common enough would Jesus, Buddha, et al have to remind? all it is: be aware that living things need your compassion; so sad but you are NOT #1 pie-hole of the universe. (Matthew 25:v34-40; one of few shreds of orthodoxy left me.) yes, too often:"it's not my job". as you point out: mentally ill, poor, elderly, children, others all qualify as "the least". still, is it correct to interfere w/ another's struggle? sometimes they must own it. (please, not refer to obvious, desperate for help.) *need we each go to extreme-very hard to get head around-of life for life? yet, only in "death" of the seed is the plant born. stuck in this plane we don't know what else there is/may be. donnie had to die (?) so he could enter life (?). that trip through the clouds: very inviting! not scary. awaits us all? *yet there are the sacrifices of life IN life: parents what do w/o for children's benefit; partners defer to partners; children care for aging parents; etc. you too kind w/compliments. thank you. am just a traveler in this world, as we all.
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Post by thepretender on Nov 9, 2006 0:51:34 GMT -5
:-) I don't think you are preachy...I sure hope I don't come off that way... Too funny did you look up The Pretender or did you just happen to know that!!?? I looked up Twinkle Twinkle Killer Kane and found out it is from a movie that I hope I can watch! All of the reviews are awesome for The Ninth Configuration www.imdb.com/title/tt0081237/usercomments
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Post by Twinkle Twinkle Killer Kane on Nov 9, 2006 10:40:09 GMT -5
no; you far from preachy; must keep eye on my tendency. check movie if you can (Ninth Configuration is new, repackage title). interest your opinion(s). "into the cool of the evening" you drop the clues, the twinkler picks them up (the memory banks are stoked).
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Post by Bigboy on Nov 9, 2006 12:54:51 GMT -5
A lovely utopian dream, the problem is that martydom is rarely selfless, because 'Martyr' is a position of status. You just know that in that utopian culture of sacrifice for the community, many of those that give the most would do so for recognition rather than compassion...
Maybe I'm too cynical?
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Post by ProvidencePortal on Nov 9, 2006 13:09:01 GMT -5
I don't think so. I believe everything we do is definitively selfish. Even those grand moments we celebrate, where someone is a hero for their "selfess" act -- typically one that puts the person in danger -- come from some deeper species-prolonging bio-programming. I believe altruism is an illusion. We do what we do for the reflection it creates. The fact that we recoil from that thought is evidence of the very programming that creates it: we're compelled to deny because if we didn't ... well, wouldn't that look ugly and reflect poorly on us? Can we still do good? Absolutely. Who cares about motivation? If I feed a homeless family for the self-satifaction it creates, because of some primordial itch, does that make them any less full? But I do think we'll be making progress when we can offer a more honest assessment of the things that drive actions we consider philanthropic ...
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Post by Twinkle Twinkle Killer Kane on Nov 9, 2006 14:31:51 GMT -5
early christian martyrs had own following: groupies and wannabes. at first did big business for the nascent church but eventually had to be discouraged: who's left to fill the collection plates? (maybe that too cynical) for serious: we certainly motivated by what feels good, self-congratulatory or acclaim from others. plant a tree for generations to come and for giddiness such knowledge imparts to self. also, how many xillionaires donate to university w/ strict instruction: do NOT put my name on any building here (another grasp at immortality). yeah, initial question reflects: how to live in balance. don't take more than needed. but give self to loss of identity? or becomes new identity (another teetering can o' worms).
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Post by Twinkle Twinkle Killer Kane on Nov 9, 2006 21:35:37 GMT -5
sorry for my previous post; quite dumb. like to retract 98% of it.
in defense of thepretender's "utopia": thinking more of zen no-mind in which actions are not calculated, results are not tabulated. no sweat lost over doing "good"; more natural flow of simple, immediate benefit. some actions we may like observed, for purpose of copying, but not done for goal-reaching (if one picks up trash perhaps another sees and does same; if the other does NOT the same is still o.k.). altruism is illusion as good is illusion*. all of nature works in give-and-take, a cycle of shared benefits, which must include death too. rain falls and plants grow. is the rain altruistic? is the rain good? rain falls and homes wash away. is the rain bad? has nature's fury been unleashed? sure, people are different from the rain, and for someone to drive people from their home is bad, isn't it? even if the people are dealing drugs and not paying rent, it's still bad, yes? not situational ethics but who knows the entire story from looking at a moment of it, one page. mistakes may turn out to be blessings later, smart moves may turn to disaster. should people be like the rain? people have choice. the rain does not justify nor explain when it results in violence. people have many reasons for the violence they do. maybe "martyrdom" was inaccurate word. "martyr" does have status connotations. "spiritual materialism", pride in one's piety, is no better than carnal ego gratification. wondering still that harmony between self and others...
*of course, chocolate fudge ice cream is good and that is no illusion.
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