|
|
Post by vaughan on Oct 28, 2004 10:39:35 GMT -5
I couldn't pass up the opportunity when I saw Donnie advertised at the local cinema as the DVD version I saw had problems in the first scene (crap disk) - this version was advertised as having 20 minutes extra.
I figured there would be somewhere on the net where the movie is discussed - so here I am.
I did a search and couldn't find it so I'm making an observation - this is only one observation - I've got lots of others but I'd imagine they've all been discussed to death already...
Anyway, what's going on between Donny and Elizabeth?
Isn't there a scene where he says "don't tell mom and dad"? Okay, this may have been about something else, but I didn't get it.
At the hotel he shares a bedroom with his two sisters and Samantha says "I'm not sleeping with Donny, he stinks," to which Donny replies "when you're asleep I'm going to f**k your face." Just a touch shocking that one.
While under hypnosis he tells his shrink he fantasises about having sex with his sisters - then denies it and says no, that's sick.
When their mom and sister leave for the airport Elizabeth gives Donny a look - check it out.
At the party Elizabeth seems concerned to know where Donny is. She's wearing an Egyptian costume - marrying siblings was a way of life for them (okay, I may be pushing it with that one). He kisses her on the forehead the following morning - again, nothing by itself, but...
Oh, again possibly unrelated, but why is Elizabeth so upset when she gets home just before the engine falls through the roof?
I'm not some sicko who reads things that aren't there, I hope, it's just that I thought "hey, what's going on between these two?".
Maybe it's only me.
Oh, I realise Donny and Elizabeth are real life brother and sister, so there was never going to be anything too obvious.
|
|
|
|
Post by ProvidencePortal on Oct 28, 2004 11:41:19 GMT -5
Welcome, Vaughan!
I'm one for teasing out and talking through even the most unusual possibilities, but in the interest of total disclosure, I'll say up front that some of the premises you cite as curious don't appear to even occur in the movie. (I invite you and others on the board to answer my questions posed to yours.)
1) What's going on between ... ? To support the framework of your questions: as a backdrop, Donnie's very natural adolescent preoccupation with sex is definitely a prominent theme throughout. And as he travels through development, pumped full of incredibly compelling (and confusing) hormones, it's possible Donnie might have suggestive feelings about his very attractive sister. Let me qualify: all I'm saying here is that there is enough we know about real life hormones, the all-encompassing and incredibly diffuse sex drive of teenage boys, and Donnie's unusualness that I think this is worth at least quickly looking into. To draw a legal analogy, we have cause to bring this before the Grand Jury, but not enough to go to trial.
2) "Don't tell mom and dad ... I do think he says this -- or, at least, someone does. But I don't remember there being any sinister undertones. Does anyone remember this quote and its connotation?
3) Comments in the hotel room This does feel as though your assessment is pretty far from the intent of the scene. Youngest Darko's comment is, I feel, pretty typical jibing on the part of a younger sister. As for what you understand to be Donnie's reply, that would be horrific ... if that's what he'd said. But I don't believe that's his comment at all. Can anyone confirm/deny?
4) Admission on the couch Again, it's with fair certainty that I say Donnie never suggests (then retracts) that he fantasizes about sex with his sisters. Can a fellow forum member identify what comment in the counselor's office might be misheard as something along these lines?
5) At the party First, Elizabeth's dress is certainly sexy, which may color interpretation of her reactions and comments. But she seems only concerned in a very sisterly, decidedly platonic way about Donnie. His forehead-kissing, too, seems fraternal.
6) Elizabeth's mental state returning that night Big Sis looks delighted following her date -- and maybe a little high or drunk. She doesn't appear anything resembling upset. But, now that I've said that, maybe I'm misremembering. Is she shown as part of the rewind, remembering the TU? I suppose she might be upset there. Correct me/fill me in ...
Vaughan, I'm not feeling dismissive about the pattern you're proposing -- I just need to get the facts straight before I can further weigh in. All I can offer as of now are these thoughts:
-- Again, this is a movie in large part about a sex-driven teenage boy (and in some crude ways that ignore the depth of the movie, his quest to get laid) ... so sex as an issue and a motivator is certainly a viable point of discussion
-- In watching the movie, I don't believe I ever sensed any suggestion of something untoward between Donnie and his sisters
-- To me, Maggie is attractive (especially at the party), and she undoubtedly has special chemistry in the role, playing opposite her real-life younger brother. Perhaps those to elements might set off subtle alarm bells and result in curiousity about "other" things going on between the characters. Right now, that feels unsupported to me.
|
|
|
|
Post by rightfielder21 on Oct 28, 2004 15:00:21 GMT -5
He said he was going to FART in her face... huge difference....
|
|
|
|
Post by rightfielder21 on Oct 28, 2004 15:11:57 GMT -5
Anyway, what's going on between Donny and Elizabeth? Isn't there a scene where he says "don't tell mom and dad"? Okay, this may have been about something else, but I didn't get it. At the hotel he shares a bedroom with his two sisters and Samantha says "I'm not sleeping with Donny, he stinks," to which Donny replies "when you're asleep I'm going to f**k your face." Just a touch shocking that one. While under hypnosis he tells his shrink he fantasises about having sex with his sisters - then denies it and says no, that's sick. When their mom and sister leave for the airport Elizabeth gives Donny a look - check it out. At the party Elizabeth seems concerned to know where Donny is. She's wearing an Egyptian costume - marrying siblings was a way of life for them (okay, I may be pushing it with that one). He kisses her on the forehead the following morning - again, nothing by itself, but... Oh, again possibly unrelated, but why is Elizabeth so upset when she gets home just before the engine falls through the roof? I'm not some sicko who reads things that aren't there, I hope, it's just that I thought "hey, what's going on between these two?". The "don't tell Mom and Dad" thing was about the cigarette... No incest there... In the hotel he says he will fart in her face, not f*ck it... Huge difference, no incest.... Actually while under hypnosis, he said "Married With Children" when Dr Thurman ask him about what else he thinks about, Dr. Thurman misunderstands him, and says something about is family, Then he says, the line about he doesn't want to f*ck his family, that’s gross... He never admitted to anything about having sex with his sisters... No incest... As far as the look, I'm don't recall it, I will go back and look, but I doubt it is anything... As for kissing his sister, he was saying goodbye for good... No incest... Elizabeth was the opposite of upset when she got home... She appeared upset when her house started shaking... There was no incest; I think you were reading into things that weren't there... Just out of curiosity how many times have you seen the film… |
|
|
|
Post by gretchen on Oct 28, 2004 17:57:36 GMT -5
all other positions were discussed so: i didn't see any concern on maggie's face at the party. when she was watching donnie and gretchen go upstairs she was smiling, she knew what was going to go down  also, i think the concern you're talking about was concern for frank. she does ask a couple party goers if they've seen frank... who has gone to get beeeeeeeeeer. |
|
|
|
Post by josh on Oct 28, 2004 23:45:21 GMT -5
Donnie did say he was going to put aeriel in the garbage disposal?! Doesn't have a thing for his sisters. But maybe a thing against animals! or pumpkins. #nosmileys
|
|
|
|
Post by vaughan on Oct 29, 2004 8:16:03 GMT -5
Erm, twice. Does that dismiss me from this forum immediately - not to return until I've seen it at least 27 times and dissected it to the nth degree?
Heh heh - Sorry, I'm sure you didn't mean it like that. Actually that's a good point...
I made the original observation going in with my eyes open, having only seen the movie once before and not having read anything here.
The suggestion of incest or incestuous feelings is just a vibe I got more than the specific things I quoted, which are a bit vague. You can take my points and disagree with them all, back it up with quotes from the movie and use it to prove I'm wrong ergo "nope, no incest". That's fine if you have an opinion about how the movie works and aren't open to alternative opinions.
That, to me, is a strange attitude to have towards something artistic - the "no, you're wrong, this is what it's about" attitude. The fact that many people have differing ideas on what the movie is about shows that it can be "many things to many people", which is a good thing. I have my own idea on how it works and think it's just as valid as anyone else's - I'm sure other people see it the same way but I won't bore you with that here.
So, all I'm saying is I appreciate a very good movie but don't feel the need to pull it to bits to try to find an inner meaning, I only made an observation about something it suggested to me. After all, it's only make believe.
V.
|
|
|
|
Post by ProvidencePortal on Oct 29, 2004 13:50:07 GMT -5
You can take my points and disagree with them all, back it up with quotes from the movie and use it to prove I'm wrong ergo "nope, no incest". That's fine if you have an opinion about how the movie works and aren't open to alternative opinions. That, to me, is a strange attitude to have towards something artistic - the "no, you're wrong, this is what it's about" attitude. I just want to reach out and vouch for the group -- I don't think that's the attitude at all, and if the behavior felt that way or appeared to be driven by that attitude, I want to offer to correct it. I certainly know what it's like to have an idea ... a feeling that's not even quite a theory ... and find little support for it among others. To me, that's a natural part of a discussion group like this one -- some people will gain a shared understanding on some things, and on others, almost noone will. But that's not a personal attack. I wish you hadn't had the reaction you did -- intimating that the forum members here are pedantic, cemented in one interpretation, and even maybe throwing a dig about personal lives with the "27 times" bit -- but I can see how it can feel like you've been summarily dismissed and people aren't open to your suggestion. I can say this for me: I did not intend to dismiss you at all. In fact, I went out of my way to list plot points that make the vibe you felt contextually viable -- Donnie's hypersexuality, for instance. But, given that you did list moments in the movie that gave you pause, can you help me understand why getting a shared understanding of those moments is bad? It does appear as though you mis-heard or mistook what was happening in at least some of those moments. And while having mistaken them doesn't invalidate your "vibe," it does make it harder for us to discuss it, if we didn't get that vibe ourselves and don't have points in the movie that help us see what you saw. So I do think it's important that we walk through your points and everyone gets on the same page about them. I will say I can sympathize with feeling like someone's run down a checklist and said "nope, nope, nope." It's just key to understand that the discussion above wasn't about your idea being wrong -- it was about getting facts straight in the movie so we could discuss your idea on a level playing field. Is it your suggestion that, in exploring an idea, having agreed-upon facts isn't important? I do guess that's true if you are only trying to share a feeling, and you're not looking to help others understand that feeling or where it comes from. Plenty of us have made posts along those lines -- "You know what? I just get this gut feeling that XX is going on in YY scene. Anyone else get that feeling?" And, lots of times, the entire body of the group says no, they don't. *Shrug* That just means we didn't have the same feeling. It doesn't mean I'm to take that as an indictment of my analytic ability, personal perspective or congnitive competence. Nor should I, in the face of not being agreed with, indict those of others. I hope we can continue this discussion, and I hope I get a chance to show you how accepting people really are here. I welcomed the newness of your perspective and the freshness of your theory/vibe. I hope you offer more of them, and weigh in on the theories, vibes, proposals, comments, thoughts and suggestions of the others here. After all, we're all in this together. edit: deleted extra word |
|
|
|
Post by rightfielder21 on Oct 29, 2004 16:38:43 GMT -5
Erm, twice. Does that dismiss me from this forum immediately - not to return until I've seen it at least 27 times and dissected it to the nth degree? Heh heh - Sorry, I'm sure you didn't mean it like that. Actually that's a good point... V. I didn't mean it at all like that, if you only saw the movie once or twice I can see how you can get that feeling... There is so much going on in it, it is easy for "little things" to catch you off gaurd like that... |
|
|
|
Post by rightfielder21 on Oct 29, 2004 16:44:27 GMT -5
Providence, my feelings exactly...
I was mostly responding to your questions about the plot points, which once clarified, there was really no incest going on in those scenes...
Sorry, if that's the impression you got Vaughan
|
|
|
|
Post by vaughan on Oct 29, 2004 20:27:17 GMT -5
Okay, okay, points taken. I was going on memory when I listed the scenes - I don't have my own copy of the movie.
Anyway, ProvidencePortal: thanks first of all for welcoming me, secondly for your intelligent and restrained reply to my perhaps slightly odd take on Donny and his sister's relationship and my opinions on other members' views. I'll have to watch the movie again and may change my mind, but for the time being I'm still going with some sort of 'vibe', subtle as it may be - if other people don't see it then fine. Perhaps I was influenced by the fact that I only read that Donny and Elizabeth are real life brother and sister the day before I saw the movie at the cinema.
Rightfielder21: thanks for the clarification on the dialogue. The sound in the cinema wasn't great - or I've got a problem with my ears, or, more worrying, a problem with my brain interpreting what my ears are hearing...
I may have jumped the gun in assuming members have discussed this movie so much here they become opinionated. A few years ago I had a friend who sometimes took the view of "this is what it's about" when it came to the meaning of symbols in movies, books etc. and wasn't open to any other interpretation. This really infuriated me so I'm always sensative to that attitude in other people - even if they don't mean to come across that way.
Anyway, thanks for your replies, I think I'll go buy the DVD.
Cheers,
V.
|
|
|
|
Post by ProvidencePortal on Oct 29, 2004 21:44:54 GMT -5
You're most welcome, V -- I'm looking forward to your contributions in the future. You're clearly lucid, articulate, passionate and not afraid to speak ... that is, type ... your mind.
Glad to have you!
|
|
|
|
Post by gretchen on Oct 30, 2004 15:55:49 GMT -5
glad we have not scared you off vaughan  personally, i haven't even watched the film quite as much as many of the others here, i also run mostly on memory. and believe me, we certainly are opinionated! haha, but we're very open to new ideas and theories so don't be afraid to share. we're also not all in the same mindset of "this is how it is, you're wrong"... we all have a slightly different take on it and some of us believe different ideas but we try at least to discuss them rationally and politely with eachother. and while i don't think anyone specifically dismissed your idea, we were just representing the evidence we had. we're open to be convinced if you are really stuck on this idea. welcome |
|
|
|
Post by josh on Nov 6, 2004 1:14:19 GMT -5
As for undertones, when donnie is walking off the golf course I can't figure out why Dr. Fisher says "I hate kids." Perhaps it is because he is standing next to Jim Cunningham who seems to have a particular fondness for kids.
Just seems to be a line of dialogue that doesn't go anywhere otherwise?
|
|
