|
Post by Randal on Aug 22, 2004 9:40:15 GMT -5
Weird that there have been no theories concerning donnie's psychological health. Any ideas why the old lady somehow knows all this time travel stuff it hints that she went through the same sort of thing?. Also what does donnie mean when in his letter to the old lady he cant wait for the universe to end, cos he'll have so much to look forward to or something like that. Does he expect to live or does he mean some sort of afterlife.
How good does this movie want to be to incite so much discussion.
|
|
|
Post by Buu on Oct 12, 2004 18:51:43 GMT -5
When the engine is returned to the wormhole at the end, wouldn't it go back to the future where it came from? Therefore it wouldn't be possible for it to again arrive from the future and kill Donnie. The engine in the end was not from the future. It had existed at the same time as Donny in the tangent universe. I assume Donny has control over where and when his portals lead to. Otherwise it just seems odd that the engines keep appearing directly over his bedroom.
|
|
|
Post by Buu on Oct 12, 2004 19:06:31 GMT -5
Also what does donnie mean when in his letter to the old lady he cant wait for the universe to end, cos he'll have so much to look forward to or something like that. Does he expect to live or does he mean some sort of afterlife. Once the tangent universe ends, Donnie of the PU will be free to die, and save Gretchen.
|
|
|
Post by Madridarko on Oct 26, 2004 23:31:23 GMT -5
Randal, it has been previosly suggested in other posts that Roberta Sparrow may have been at once herself a Living reciever, so she once saved the universe but that is supposed to prove also that the Living Reciever does not neccessaraly have to die. but because she did decide to live, she want crazed, and that if donnie were to live he would have ended up like her. I dissaprove this theory and think that Grandma Death all she had was a certain insight of God's plan or had a divine "brush" I think it is ridiculus that she might have been a living receiver. I just think she was mystirously in this plan that god had put her.
I belive you are refferring to this qoute
"Dear Roberta Sparrow, I have reached the end of your book and there are so many things that I need to ask you. Sometimes I'm afraid of what you might tell me. Sometimes I'm afraid that you'll tell me that this is not a work of fiction. I can only hope that the answers will come to me in my sleep. I hope that when the world comes to an end, I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to."
I guess that by this he was suggesting that he knew what he was to do, he was to save the world, yet he knew that he would have to die for this and die in his sleep, I don't know how or why, and that only then at that time when he would know that everyone he loves is safe, he will be able to take a breathe a sigh of relief and look to everything that there will be to look foreword, because eventhough the world ended for him, he died knowing he saved the universe from destruction, so there is actually something to look foreward to and not just the end of the world.
|
|
|
Post by Bigboy on Oct 27, 2004 10:35:40 GMT -5
My interpretation of the letter is different; I think that it refers to his doubt that it's all been real, that he has the ability to save the universe:
If it is a work of fiction it means that either he really is crazy and everything has been hallucination and irrational behaviour on his part (in which case the 'end of the world' refers to the end of his sanity), or that he has no real power at all and cannot save the world. (If it isn't fiction - thats a hella load of responsibility for one teenager, so of course he's afraid and had self doubt.)
Not much interpretation needed here - I think this is a literal hope - things often fall in to place when you sleep on them. Although it could be an intuition that when it's all over things will be remembered as dreams.
the world he refers to here can be the TU or his mind, for the reasons noted above. When the world ends, the only way he will be relieved is if he is alive and sane in the real world (PU). In which case he would have his whole life to look forward to without the fear of lonliness. And that is just what happens - but he wakes up thinking it was a dream, laughs out of relief, and goes back to sleep.
However you interpret the letter it is definately written from a standpoint of doubt (he hopes but does not believe), so even if 'the end of the world' means his death and 'so much to look forward to' is heaven, he still doubts it, which fits into the theme of his agnosism.
I also think that it is abundantly evident that Sparrow was a LR at some point,and I'm sorry MAD but i cant see how your post disproves it. A whole book is a hell of a lot of specific info. If the living could be influenced to this degree, why are the manipulated living manipulated in such a subtle way? (Donnies hope that it isn't all real is echoed in the forward of the POTT 'I hope this is all just a work of fiction' - suggests that she had a similar experience)
|
|
|
Post by Madridarko on Oct 27, 2004 19:50:50 GMT -5
I do belive that she was never and will not, and will never be a LR! She was a sort of nun and she was really close with god. At this time I belive, she had a divine encounter or glimpse of a future, not literally, so she knows and is semi-guided by god of what she must writte, because it is part of God's plan. God knows that it will be a crucial factor in the endurance trap later on when all that TU happens. So she slowly starts self-isolating herself and is interested in science, so she teaches it in order to understand it better. Then she turns all crazy and ends up where she was. Why do you think she just walks back and forth between the street and the mailbox? Because she knows donnie will send her this letter from years before he was born. She is waiting for it and it is an ultimate part in the endurance part the killing of gretchen. All this knowledge was part of the divine "insight" she had. God in his twisted, not Twisted as in gross and evil twisted but twisted as weired and unique/unknown, ways was sure to inform Roberta Sparrow of all these events and the letter and why its a crucial part. Maybe Sparrow never really knew why, but she knew she had to follow God. How else would you explain the letter and all that insident. How else would she know to expect it. The LR theory does not explain it. All it says is that she was LR once, decided to live somehow after saving the Universe, then because of this she went crazy and wrote the book not knowing anything of who would read it and for no reason started walking up and down the street. She also just decided to tell Donnie that just because she wanted to. That is what that theory explains! We could go on to the debate that if the LR has the choice to live or die, I personally belive that they might have the choice, but most of them or all of them have or choose to die. So there is no escaping of the death. I use a qoute from the POTT to support this:
"....Ancient myth tells us of the Mayan Warrior killed by an Arrowhead that had fallen from a cliff, where there was no Army, no enemy to be found.
....We are told of the Medieval Knight mysteriously impaled by the sword he had not yet built.
We are told that these things occur for a reason."
So even more of a reason she is was never a LR, they are supposed to die yet she lived.
|
|
|
Post by ProvidencePortal on Oct 28, 2004 7:42:39 GMT -5
So even more of a reason she is was never a LR, they are supposed to die yet she lived. Actually, that's exactly the reasoning people have used to suggest she was a living receiver, and to explain why Donnie died in the end -- seemingly otherwise unnecessarily. The thinking goes: Living Receivers are, for some reason unknown to us, given a choice to die or live on after they've closed their tangent. Those that choose to die are doing the "right" thing because it's aligned with God's plan. Those who choose to live are bucking the divine schematic and are forced to live a life of alienation, exhibiting bizarre ticks and strange, circular patterns of behavior ... the result of them becoming intimately interwined with some future LR's process. Thus, one interpretation of the Sparrow character is that she wrote the Philosophy of Time Travel after experiencing the LR process first-hand. She chose to live after closing her tangent, though, and was forced to await Donnie's own LR cycle, including being given just enough foresight to continuously check her mailbox for his letter, year after year after year.
|
|
|
Post by Madridarko on Oct 28, 2004 18:46:30 GMT -5
But how exactly would she have known of Donnies letter with only being the LR. Ok, now imagine that she had decided to not live. Then she would have not written POTT and Donnie would have been even more confused and all the gretchen thing would not have happened and ultimatly the universe would have ended. You would say then that she was bound to be one of the rare and maybe only living receivers that survived, but then what influenced her to do that, I mean why didn't she decide to die, she could have easily done that. So that leads to the point that there MUST have been some divine intervention in her opinion or such, which as it has been ruled out through out many points, God can not intervine with their free will directly. He could cause occasions that might lead a person to a decive and only solution.
|
|
|
Post by ProvidencePortal on Oct 29, 2004 7:08:37 GMT -5
So that leads to the point that there MUST have been some divine intervention in her opinion or such, which as it has been ruled out through out many points, God can not intervine with their free will directly. The entire proposal that Sparrow was once an LR presumes that the LR cycle is a divinely motivated and guided process. No one is arguing that the theory of Sparrow as the LR who kept living doesn't include God.
|
|
|
Post by Madridarko on Oct 29, 2004 18:25:59 GMT -5
who ever said it does not include God.
|
|
|
Post by ProvidencePortal on Oct 29, 2004 21:36:40 GMT -5
who ever said it does not include God. Are you serious? Noone, which was exactly my point. In continuing to defend your belief that Sparrow could not have been a Living Receiver, you have stated several times that she was "only" someone close to God, with whom God "intervened." Then you made the point that she " must have been influenced" by God ... which suggests someone else was saying she wasn't divinely influenced. My point was, no one is saying the divine doesn't probably have a lot to do with the LR process. In fact, the theory circulating now has God's plan (and influence) as a CORE component in the LR-who-chooses-to-live scenario. So I don't understand what your emphatic point was that she "MUST" be divinely influenced -- we're all saying that.
|
|
|
Post by Madridarko on Oct 31, 2004 10:25:13 GMT -5
My emphasis on MUST is on that she must have been influenced by god. I don't think that there is anyway that because Sparrow might have come out of this dream and she realizes somehow it was true or belives it and then she writes a book about it, is going to be able to give her any insight towards what is it that she had to do in order to donnie save the world. I mean walk back and forth waiting for Donnie's letter. I emphazised on the must because I agree with a point that states that god cannot really influence on a persons life directly of coarse except when in TU wehn they are all following this set of God's plan to ensure the succes of the ensurance trap. So she used to do the walking thing even before being in the TU. You might say well what about what you work at like the teachers or stuff, didn't they do that before in the PU too. That is not the point I am getting to, their actions are following a pre-described plan.
|
|
|
Post by ProvidencePortal on Oct 31, 2004 11:07:50 GMT -5
Unfortunately, Madri, I can't for the life of me make sense of your last post. Honestly: between the missing words, extra words, and the general gibber there, I don't know what you're trying to say.
If you'd like to continue the conversation, maybe you would consider reposting your position in a new way? Otherwise, I'll just figure we've both said enough and move on ...
|
|
|
Post by Madridarko on Oct 31, 2004 12:42:57 GMT -5
My emphasis on MUST is on that she must have been influenced by god. I don't think that there is anyway that because Sparrow might have come out of this dream (after saving the world everybody wakes up and thinks of it as a distant dream) and she (Roberta) realizes somehow it was true or belives it was true, and then she writes a book about it(POTT). How did all of those events give her any insight towards what is it that she is is supposed to do (walk back and forth fromt to the mailbox) in order to ensure that donnie sends the engine back in time. I emphazised on the must because I agree with a point mentioned in one of the threads that states that God can not really influence on a persons choice/free will directly of coarse except when the person is in a TU, in which they all follow this set of God's plan to ensure the succes of the ensurance trap. She does the mailbox walking thing even before the TU started. You might say well what about for example what you work in, like the teachers, they did taught even before entering the Tu. That is not the point I am getting to, their actions are following a pre-described plan.
Let me summerize this idea. Ok, I am viewing it from a stand point of "god can not influence your free will"
So if we suppose that Roberta Sparrow was a LR once, that means the she must have been directly influenced by God to walk the mailbox thing, because she could have not had a single idea from just being the LR. So this is one of my main points of why she was not a LR. This is when my exception comes that only in the TU is when god has a somewhat direct control over your actions because you are to follow a certain path. Again everybody except the LR. So Roberat Sparrow was doing the walking thing even before the TU started. So that means it had to be out of her own choice. If she had been a LR, that would explain the book, but not her actions (mailbox walk).
In my oppinion, because she was a nun, she was close in a sense, to god. So she was able to be given insight by god and she wrote the book and left to teach science, or the other way around. In that same insight she was given the.. you know what, I am just tired. I am confused, and can not keep up treing to explain if I myself am doubting my own point of view.
Lets just leave it like this. Roberta was a LR then she saved the world and decided not to die. So she wasn't the same ever again. Maybe at that time she decided to leave the church and wrote POTT with her own experiences. Did reaserch, yada yada. Then because if she lived she would have been a simple "error" in Gods plan in regular terms, but maybe she was an exeption or so. She was meant to live because she was bound to writte that book to help donnie and she would be a crucial character later on in Donnies quest. So what if she would have died. that is still a question that I can not question or answer myself, just the same as I can not answere what if Donnie had lived. Congrats! you have convinced me, or was it myself that convinced me? Anyways, now I am a beliver. Or semi-beliver?
|
|
|
Post by Madridarko on Oct 31, 2004 12:46:52 GMT -5
Hey, also, happy October 30th/ Halloween! The tangent Universe ended at 6:42 A.M. which was kind of weried because it was also the daylight saving time swithch in the same day. Anyways, Donnie saved the world and died. I still don't get it though, they had a halloween party on the night of October the 29 and it was not literally Halloween yet. Why?
|
|