I worked it out-Kinda

[Deus Ex]

Okay, the central problem with the Donnie Darko story is that it is not understood in what relation the plane engine and Donnie's death or survival had to do with the survival of the primary universe, I think I now understand:

The corruption in the fourth demension occurs before the artifact (Plane engine) and before Frank saves Donnie, we don't get to see what caused this corruption, perhaps it periodically happens. What we know is that the result of this corruption is falling engine in a universe that wasn't meant to exist

This has been suggested before, but the problem with it is that suddenly Donnie's death has little or no meaning and this damages the nature of the film for some people.

But the key point is this, the corruption in the fourth demension kickstarts the series of events of which the result is Frank, Gretchens death, end of the world, etc.
But engine falling in Donnie's room is just one of the events in the chain, not the primary event.

So Donnie really has to stay in bed in order to preserve the intended course of events in the primary universe. If Frank had never told Donnie to get out of bed in the first place and he had died the world would still have come to an end because the tangent universe had already been created by an event before the movie starts.

But Donnie and his death are linked to that chain of events and must do their part in order to maintain the primary universe and the survival of existence.

Donnie is laughing at the end for a few reasons, 1.He has experienced so much more that he would have if he had died, he has loved, saved the world etc. 2. He realizes he won't die alone because God exists and is with him (Most people refute this argument even though it makes perfect sense, I am very suspect of the existence of God as well but that is the message of the film, ina deleted scene Frank says to Donnie, "God loves his children, God loves you" even though it is a deleted scene I don't think the director would have filmed something that sent such a strong message when it was not the message of the film.)

The question still remains, how is the primary universe really different from the tangent, in other words if Frank had never appeared and Donnie had died how would the tangent universe by different from the primary universe.

Unless, we assume there is some corruption that goes before the engine, but it is the engine that fixes the universe, so that must be the focal point.

Ultimately I am beginning to doubt that the film makes sense, like all stories of time travel it just doesn't seem to add up, even when a director just makes up a book defining his own (Philosophy of Time Travel) concept of it, I just wish there was a coherant solution to this problem.

[Bigboy]

The corruption in the fourth demension occurs before the artifact (Plane engine) and before Frank saves Donnie, we don't get to see what caused this corruption, perhaps it periodically happens. What we know is that the result of this corruption is falling engine in a universe that wasn't meant to exist

Bingo.

But the key point is this, the corruption in the fourth demension kickstarts the series of events of which the result is Frank, Gretchens death, end of the world, etc.
But engine falling in Donnie's room is just one of the events in the chain, not the primary event.

Ok - i'll accept that the engine hitting Donnie's room is secondary, but only to the corruption itself and the creation of the TU.

So Donnie really has to stay in bed in order to preserve the intended course of events in the primary universe. If Frank had never told Donnie to get out of bed in the first place and he had died the world would still have come to an end because the tangent universe had already been created by an event before the movie starts.

Whos to say there is an intended course of events on the PU? Everything that happens is to influence Donnie to send back the artifact and collapse the TU. The idea of a fated future in the PU (or TU for that matter - if Donnie doesn't have free will, why all the bother with the outside influence and the ensurence trap?) is ever really addressed, in my opinion.

But Donnie and his death are linked to that chain of events and must do their part in order to maintain the primary universe and the survival of existence.

Why? Donnie dies in the PU after is has been saved - I don't see how Donnie's survival could change that.

I have a different interpretation of Donnies laughter - but your ideas are widly shared. And I agree up to a point - I believe he is laughing because,as you say, he has loved, realises that he is loved and needn't be alone and in no small part is relieved that the world still exists. But I can't believe he would then choose to die after such life affirming revelations - I think he sees it all as a (very) vivid dream and doesn't truly believe he's about to be crushed, and goes back to sleep. That he dies as a result is ironic, and tragic - but not necessary.

The question still remains, how is the primary universe really different from the tangent, in other words if Frank had never appeared and Donnie had died how would the tangent universe by different from the primary universe.

You answered your own question earlier - if Frank had not woken Donnie then both TU and PU would have been destroyed. So a moot question really.

Unless, we assume there is some corruption that goes before the engine, but it is the engine that fixes the universe, so that must be the focal point.

Yep. Kinda.

Overall I think you pretty much have it with the artifact:
-For some reason a corruption of spacetime occurs.
-The physical manifestation of this is an (metal) artifact that pops out of the PU into the newly created TU.
-To save the PU and collapse the TU, the artifact (or it's counterpart) must be returned from the TU to the PU.

Simple.

As to whether Donnies death really affects the survival of the universe - I dont think so, but its open to individual interpretation.

Overall I think that the film (with TPOTT) is pretty coherent, it just forces you to use your imagination!

[Elwood]

Bigboy, that's a great response to Deus Ex's post. The interpretation of the film that I like best agrees almost entirely with yours. One difference is that I prefer to think that Donnie chose to die in bed, not thinking his TU experience was a dream. I don't think there's a very strong reason to see it that way, it just somehow feels more correct to me.

I do wonder a bit, though, about what you said here:

Bigboy said:

Overall I think you pretty much have it with the artifact:
-For some reason a corruption of spacetime occurs.
-The physical manifestation of this is an (metal) artifact that pops out of the PU into the newly created TU.
-To save the PU and collapse the TU, the artifact (or it's counterpart) must be returned from the TU to the PU.

I don't necessarily get the sense that the appearance of the first jet engine is directly related to the start of the TU. Why do think that that engine came from the PU? I admit it would allow for a tidy way of looking at events, perhaps even a better story. But based on what I see at the website, I don't believe that the PU is the origin of the first jet engine. For lack of a better explanation, I'm left with the impression that the first engine is the exact same one as the later engine which Donnie sends back to the PU.

[Bigboy]

From TPOTT:

"....If an Artifact occurs, the Living will retrieve it with
great interest and curiosity. Artifacts are formed from
metal, such as an Arrowhead from an ancient Mayan
civilization, or a Metal Sword from Medieval Europe.

....Artifacts returned to the Primary Universe are often
linked to religious iconography; as their appearance on
Earth seems to defy logical explanation.
"
"The Manipulated Dead will often set an Ensurance
Trap for the Living Receiver to ensure that the Artifact
is returned safely to the Primary Universe.
"

If the artifact is being returned to the PU, it is only logical to assume that that is where it came from in the first place.

But it cant be the exact same engine - you see the engine being ripped off the plane to go to the PU - I doubt very much that the FAA would simply weld an engine that fell out of the sky onto a new plane! That's why I said the artifact or it's counterpart must return to the PU.

I'll admit that there is contrdiction here, but it's what the material says!

[ProvidencePortal]

Right -- any answers we have to the engine conundrum come largely from the PoTT. Then, we extrapolate. If there's an "imbalance," we draw conclusions about "mirrored" universes where all things exist in both places, and further conclude that having one extra of something in the wrong spot mucks up the whole deal (who knew God was so OCD?).

But even so, there remain questions about the relationship between the engine/TU/Donnie -- specifically, what's causal, what's not? I haven't heard or conceived of a story to explain the first engine that gave any satisfaction ... but re-reading the PoTT quote in Bigboy's post had me thinking along a new line.

Read the very first phrase in the quote: "If an Artifact occurs" (my emphasis). The moment I read this, the idea of copied/tangential universes and the possible origins of the engine suddenly came together for me.

Before I explain, let me first draw an analogy. When movies are copied (or "transferred") from the original film to a digital format, there are sometimes blocks of color, weird fuzzies and other strange elements that are created as anomlies of the process. They're referred to as "artifacts" and are looked at as unfortunate and undesirable -- that is, a transfer with no artifacts is considered best.

It was this film transfer process I thought of instantly when I read that, according to the PoTT, an artifact doesn't "pass from one universe to another" or "fall through the great rift in the sky" ... but, rather, it occurs. It just happens, presumably as part of whatever process causes the TU.

So here's my proposed "where'd the engine come from" bit, with apologies if this has been obvious or already considered and dismissed:
1) a random corruption in time occurs
2) this random corruption spawns a copy of the universe -- the Tangent -- in much the same way a computer glitch might cause a program to copy itself or add new files
3) the copy universe and the original -- the TU and the PU -- are intimately intertwined, even to the point of being connected by a wormhole that runs through space/time between them
4) as part of the jolting, random corruption and the subsequent "doubling" or "copying" process, an artifact occurs ... an equally random bit of material accidently generated by the unstable process that creates the TU. This is the airplane engine that falls from nowhere in the TU.

This raises some interesting questions for me, the first being: if the process that creates the TU is unstable and can result in one artifact, might it not result in more? This then changes the LR process significantly: the artifact is no longer The Artifact, but simply one piece of space-time continuum junk, and the act of sending the engine through the wormhole becomes more about the passage and less about the actual item sent. In other words, if there were also an artifact teddy bear, might Donnie have been able to jack a hot air balloon and drop ole' teddy into the wormhole to the same effect -- saving the PU?

Imagine Donnie laughing in bed. Laughing, laughing ... then the faintest thump from the roof, where a stuffed bear -- THE STUFFED BEAR OF DESTINY -- has fallen from the sky.

[Bigboy]

I quite like that idea (although The Stuffed Bear of Destiny would have to be knitted from wire wool - artifacts are necessarily made of metal )

It still doesn't sit quite right with me though; if the artifact is a copying error (or rendering error for all you games testers out there!), then the idea of it 'returning' to anywhere doesn't really make sense.

But then TPOTT also says "....If an Artifact occurs....", implying that it might not! It then goes on to state that the only way to safely close the TU is to locate and return the Artifact. What if one doesn't occur!?!

Which just goes to show that the TPOTT is not quite self consistent (but then we are only shown exerpts from an apparently much longer book...).
Mistakes? Or an act of genius ensuring discussion for a long while to come?

[Elwood]

For some reason I'm struck with the image of the Stuffed Bear of Destiny (made with an internal metal wire frame, BTW, to qualify as an artifact) raising its arms and laughing gleefully as it straddles the jet engine, rushing down the portal to meet it's fate at Donnie's roof (Dr. StrangeBear, anyone?)

*Sigh* The more I sit here rereading the PoTT to try to find an answer, the more I'm struck by the fact that some parts of the PoTT, website, commentary, i.e., all the pieces of evidence of Kelly's intent, just don't seem to be consistent at this close level of scrutiny.

Prov, I think your idea of the artifact being a copying error is neat. I wonder if a definition from film making might seem more natural to Kelly, too. And it does, in my mind, make better sense than other theories of that odd PoTT phrasing that led you there: "If an artifact occurs". Still, I think Bigboy makes a good point about the use of the word "return" in the PoTT. It's hard to argue that this doesn't mean that the first jet engine originated in the PU, making it tougher to back either a "copying error" or a "both engines from 10/30 in the TU" approach.

But how do we reconcile that with evidence at the website which seems to say no engine was ever found missing from the PU? I've written some specifics before, at reply #14 here:

darkomovie.proboards24.com/index.cgi?board=ending&thread=1096997352&action=display&start=0

These two pieces of evidence seem to directly contradict each other.

I would be so much happier if the story had been that with the occurrence of the TU, an engine mysteriously vanishes in the PU only to land on Donnie's TU house. This is casued by the corruption having manifested itself as a rift/wormhole just big enough to swallow the engine from the unlucky plane that happened to be flying by. The imbalance of two engines in the TU and none in the PU can be a cause of the TU's instability, and the return of the engine to the PU seems like a natural way to set things right. The problem that I see with this is that the website just doesn't support it.

How about this, in the context of the spin the director's cut is supposed to put on things: The first jet engine does indeed originate from the PU - the FAA does find a plane with a missing engine, but covers it up (explaining suggestions of rumors in the website "Fell's Opinion" piece). The actual cause of all these events are the director's cut's "Future Scientists", dabbling in the history of the world, and the FAA of 1988 is on to them just enough to be suspicious and want to keep everything quiet. Roberta Sparrow could have thought she was inspired by God to write the PoTT, but perhaps was actually inspired by the Future Scientists pretending to be God, in order to appeal to her religious nature. They used her to help fix a problem they created when they bungled some time travel experiment, causing a rift to swallow a PU jet engine. Hence, although the PoTT gives valuable information to Donnie, it suffers from slight inaccuracies since the truth conveyed by the Future Scientists was slightly distorted by both Roberta Sparrow's religious interpretation and the scientists need to keep their identites secret. It's a built-in excuse for us to not have to reconcile every detail in the PoTT.

It might work, but it's an awful lot of plot to add the movie. In the end, maybe you've got the best explanation, Bigboy:

Bigboy said:

Mistakes? Or an act of genius ensuring discussion for a long while to come?

[Liansky]

I'm not much into this Donnie Jargon nor do i apply myself to theories that makes too much out of nothing, but i would like to share my own theory.

What if Donnie is the actuall anomaly? Starting from the point just before th engine arrived, what if there was no engine?

Donnie would have gotten up in the morning, met Grethchen, ridiculed the pedo, and thrown the party. The only thing that faults my theory is what would have prompted him to go to Roberta's house, but let's assume that in this reality where no jet engine appears, the universe plays out it's original intention, prompting Donnie to go the house, thereby leading to the death of Gretchen. This would ultimately prompt the same reponds from Donnie, in that he would pop one in Frank. However, things weren't suppose to work out this way.

Donnie should not have met Gretchen, Frank should not have died, and that portal should not have opened. What if the portal is a means by which the universe limits the damage by eliminating the anomaly.

A portal opens and sends a means by which the anomaly can be eliminated, thus returning reality to it's intended course. God fixing a glitch in his otherwise impeccable strategy. Of course, the means by which the anomily is eradicated has to be constructed in such a way that it does not lead to an accumalation of anomilies(inevitably resulting in chaos). The perfect oppertuntiy arises with each and every factor being positioned: for eg: the exact climatic conditions, position of the plane, position of the portal(which lands where it is intended)(remember what the science teacher says). And voila, the anomaly is elmininated..... but not quite....

Frank, being Frank, is caught in state of limbo between the the physical and spiritual world, arising from guilt and remorse(he kills Gretchen, causing Donnie insufferable pain). Observing Donnie and having learned of the plan to eliminate Donnie, he decides to intervene and save Donnie as to ease his guilty conscience. But, he is further racked with the guilt of knowing that he is meddling and that Donnie should not have existed, so he gives Donnie a choice. He allows Donnie to choose between life and the ultimate disentegration into chaos, or death and the restoration of equilibrium. What does Donnie choose?

As for the laugh. Donnie goes into a momentary lapse of sanity. not knowing what to make of being the anomaly, the mistake that has to be eradicated.

Lastly, looking at the begining, Donnie gets on a bike and goes home. This suggests that whilst fast asleep, he cycles along a dangerous mountainous path in the middle of the night, and manages to not fall to his death.


But hey, it's just a theory.

[Bigboy]

I've had an idea!

If we combine the idea of the 'copying' artifact and the future scientists I think it's possible to resolve the whole engine(s) issue;

So we have these scientists screwing with spacetime, and something goes wrong - it's at this point in the PU that the erronious duplication occurs. Maybe a side affect of thier experimentation is that it occasionally duplicates pockets of spacetime localised around dense metal objects. (Ooooh! Sciency! ;D)
This duplication may itself cause (or be) the corruption, or the corruption may trigger the duplication - either way the TU is created and the engine is sucked right in.

This way
- The artifct is an artifact in its strictest sense (ie something that shouldn't be there)
- The artifact (or it's TU counterpart) can return to the PU.
- No plane wreck or accident is needed in the PU to explain the extra engine.


On a different note - I don't think these 'future scientists' are all that far in the future (from 1988) at all.
Here's my reasoning:
- We know that Prof Monitoff owns the PoTT.
- He seems expert on the subject of time travel, wormholes etc (his conversations with Donnie)
- We know from his obituary on the website that he worked for the CIA prior to working in education.
- Also from his obituary we are told that the architypal 'black sedan' is seen speeding away from his fatal 'accident'.
- He ensures in the event of his death that the PoTT is buried and kept safe. (From a letter we are shown on the website)

If we assume that while his credentials say CIA he was actually working as a research scientist for a more secretive government organisation, who are experimenting with the notions of time travel/wormholes etc. He leaves for what ever motive and 'retires' to a job in education taking with him an obscure but (he realises) essential document with him (ie PoTT).
Years later the secretive organisation he originally worked for realise that he has a vital piece of documentation and kills him in an attempt to recover it - but realising it's importnce he has arranged for its secretion in the event of his death.
It is that organisation that causes the corruption in 1988. Perhapse it is when they cause the corruption that they realise the importance of PoTT and attempt to recover it.

Seems to fit - what do you think?

Edit - changed 'realised dangers ' for a more enigmatic motive.

[Reed]

bigboy said:

I've had an idea!

If we combine the idea of the 'copying' artifact and the future scientists I think it's possible to resolve the whole engine(s) issue;

So we have these scientists screwing with spacetime, and something goes wrong - it's at this point in the PU that the erronious duplication occurs. Maybe a side affect of thier experimentation is that it occasionally duplicates pockets of spacetime localised around dense metal objects. (Ooooh! Sciency! ;D)
This duplication may itself cause (or be) the corruption, or the corruption may trigger the duplication - either way the TU is created and the engine is sucked right in.

This way
- The artifct is an artifact in its strictest sense (ie something that shouldn't be there)
- The artifact (or it's TU counterpart) can return to the PU.
- No plane wreck or accident is needed in the PU to explain the extra engine.


On a different note - I don't think these 'future scientists' are all that far in the future (from 1988) at all.
Here's my reasoning:
- We know that Prof Monitoff owns the PoTT.
- He seems expert on the subject of time travel, wormholes etc (his conversations with Donnie)
- We know from his obituary on the website that he worked for the CIA prior to working in education.
- Also from his obituary we are told that the architypal 'black sedan' is seen speeding away from his fatal 'accident'.
- He ensures in the event of his death that the PoTT is buried and kept safe. (From a letter we are shown on the website)

If we assume that while his credentials say CIA he was actually working as a research scientist for a more secretive government organisation, who are experimenting with the notions of time travel/wormholes etc. He leaves for what ever motive and 'retires' to a job in education taking with him an obscure but (he realises) essential document with him (ie PoTT).
Years later the secretive organisation he originally worked for realise that he has a vital piece of documentation and kills him in an attempt to recover it - but realising it's importnce he has arranged for its secretion in the event of his death.
It is that organisation that causes the corruption in 1988. Perhapse it is when they cause the corruption that they realise the importance of PoTT and attempt to recover it.

Seems to fit - what do you think?

Edit - changed 'realised dangers ' for a more enigmatic motive.

Wow, Bigboy, that's good stuff. I never knew that stuff about Dr. Carter, I thought he was just boning what's-her-face. I guess that's what I get for not working my way through the website.

Anyway, that does open things up a bit for me. Originally, I thought the whole time-travel / alternate universe thing had a "natural" feel to it, which made it seem like a divine intervention or something, and not time travel fromt he future.

So when I saw the director's cut, it kind of tossed all my theories down the Bemis. As I'm sure has been discussed, the cut scenes with all the computer graphics and fireworks made it seem a more artificial, man-made phenomena.

So with the good work done on this thread, and a little more info about the good DOctor Monitoff, please indulge me while I theorize a bit.

Let us assume that Dr. Monitoff created some sort of time transport mechanism. So then, he remembers the tragic tale of one of his favorite students from a while back, Donnie Darko, who had his life trashed in just a few days. His mother and sister died in a plane crash on the same day that his girlfriend was murdered, and the day before he was arrested and eventually sent to prison for arson. And to top it off, the jet engine crashed into his house, killing his sister who had just been accepted into Harvard. What a waste!

Or perhaps, it was his CURRENT student, and it led him to go back to the CIA black ops and pursue the time travel studies.

So let's say that the Doc decides to experiment, to see if he can alter that series of events. But accidently, he creates an "artifact", and the resulting paradox threatens the universe, etc.

How to rectify this?!? Perhaps, he could somehow transmit some information to an old physics teacher he'd heard of, to get her to write a book to warn and guide Donnie as to how to fix the time-space continuum and save the universe?

Of course, Dr. Monitoff gets whacked, for his collosal fuckup. Or perhaps, he even has himself whacked, to prevent himself from retriggering an anomoly in the altered primary universe.

Sounds like a whacked out theory, I know, but it does help explain things. Especially Roberta Sparrow and TPOTT. A book about time travel, with such specifics about how if certain things aren't done, the universe is going to end? Doesn't sound like your traditional physics book, now does it? A VERY specific book, written for one person:

This intent of this book is for it to be used as a simple and direct guide in a time of great danger.

I pray that this is merely a work of fiction.

If it is not, then I pray for you, the reader of this book.

If I am still alive when the events foretold in these pages occur, then I hope that you will find me before it is too late.

It also explains Donnie's apparent awareness of future events, including his soon being caught for buring down Jim Cunningham's house (which never happens since he dies before then), Jim Cunningham being a pedo, Cherita's future being bright.

Any thoughts? (and please, don't tell me to search the site before posting. )

[ProvidencePortal]

Totally plausible extension of Monitoff as a major plot driver. I like it -- it's interesting to flip the usual assumption (that Donnie's experiences are caused in order to close the TU) and suggest his experiences instead caused someone else to open the rift and create the TU, in order to save him from his ordeal.

On the other topic, you were definitely owed an apology from me (and got it) ... and I'd give it again. I was definitely overzealous and rude in my responses to you in that exchange.

[Reed]

providenceportal said:

On the other topic, you were definitely owed an apology from me (and got it) ... and I'd give it again. I was definitely overzealous and rude in my responses to you in that exchange.

I was just being a wiseass, don't worry about it.

Overzealous is my middle name, and I'm not about to hold a grudge over something so trivial.

[Reed]

So anyway, along these lines, I have a few thoughts, in no particular order:

1) When first discussing time travel with Donnie, Monitoff talks about wormholes and Stephen Hawking, and then mentions needing a vessel made out of metal. But in any physics discussions about time travel, etc. has anyone ever heard of the requirement that a vessel be made of metal? No. So by saying that you need metal, was Monitoff giving away that he's worked in the area? That a time machine need to be made of metal, is that something taken from the theoretical writings of Hawking, or from his own practical research?

2) In the terms "manipulated living" and "manipulated dead", who exactly is it who's doing the manipulating? Dr. Monitof, monitoring things back in the future?

3) Could the matter be that the technology is good for conveying information on a subconcious level to people in the past, but trying to interact with objects physically, or send objecyts through time, is a bit sketchy?

4) Do I have too much free time on my hands?

[Bigboy]

1. I can't say for sure what Hawking's opinion of a vessel designed to traverse a wormhole would be - but I can say for certain that a significant proportion of it would be metal. There are a plethora of metals and alloys, many of which have properties that would be needed - structural strength, electrical conductivity etc.
Also, I have no idea what sort of electric fields thrash about inside wormholes, but I'd feel a lot safer if I were sitting inside a Faraday Cage (i.e. surrounded by metal).

2. "They" are doing the manipulating - they being God or 'Future Scientists', depending on your interpretation.
In this scenario "They" are Scientists from another time (not necessarily the future), specifically Monitof and those who worked with him whilst at "NASA"/"CIA" etc.

3. Bingo.

4. Yes

[Reed]

bigboy said:

1. I can't say for sure what Hawking's opinion of a vessel designed to traverse a wormhole would be - but I can say for certain that a significant proportion of it would be metal. There are a plethora of metals and alloys, many of which have properties that would be needed - structural strength, electrical conductivity etc.
Also, I have no idea what sort of electric fields thrash about inside wormholes, but I'd feel a lot safer if I were sitting inside a Faraday Cage (i.e. surrounded by metal).

Right, but you're talking like an engineer, not a physicist. So was Monitof, mixing in a bit of engineering practice into a discussion of theory.

4. Yes

Oh, and I suppose your schedule is booked months in advance, right?