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Post by good site on Jul 15, 2004 5:49:31 GMT -5
ruinedeye.com/cd/time1.htmLook through the whole POTT book there, especially look at the last page which has all the characters defined, i.e. Gretchen=MD
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Post by balki on Jul 22, 2004 21:57:52 GMT -5
The way I see it Frank and Gretchen have the most impact on Donnie and are the biggest driving forces to him and in that way they both have something in commen.seems to me the maniputlated dead are more powerful than the manipulated living.
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Post by darkguyb on Oct 20, 2004 10:21:16 GMT -5
Gretchen is manipulated dead and this means she can time travel. However, Frank is already time traveling to control Donnie. If Gretchen went back in time and appeared to Donnie, it would help but maybe hinder so she doesn't. I also don't think the MD can touch anything because of the water barrier so they can only mind control. Maybe Gretchen is off manipulating the other living people while Frank works on Donnie?
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Post by darkguyb on Oct 20, 2004 10:22:00 GMT -5
IIVII, I think your quote is funny. It may just be a little subtle for most
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Post by ProvidencePortal on Oct 21, 2004 16:31:22 GMT -5
If Gretchen went back in time and appeared to Donnie, it would help but maybe hinder so she doesn't. I'm not sure I agree with the specifics of your point (that is, that MD Gretchen chooses not to interfere because it may hinder the process ... just not enough evidence for me to go on), but I think you're headed in the direction of what I'm about to post here, darkguyb: the two arguments going back and forth in this thread are not, in fact, mutually exclusive ... and we don't have to have seen Gretchen excercising her MD powers -- nor do we have to have seen her MD incarnation -- to believe she is MD. By definition, Gretchen is a member of that popular social-advocacy group, the Manipulated Dead. But that in no way means that Kelly was compelled to show us her MD representation in the movie. We do get to see both incarnations of Frank: poor-driving and "alive" Frank, and bunny-suit-wearing "dead" Frank. Because we don't see both incarnations of Gretchen, are we to assume they don't both exist? Seems silly to do so. Think of it this way: suppose a friend of yours came into the living room while you were watching Donnie Darko -- entered, in fact, just at the moment Frank runs down Gretchen and is killed. Horrified, your friend turns and leaves, having seen only the "alive" (well, and then shot to death) Frank character in the movie. Because your friend never saw the other incarnation of Frank in the movie would not of course mean that spooky-bunny MD Frank didn't exist. What's more, given the context of the movie and the definition of the MD, your friend would be forced to admit that the character he saw gunned down in the TU complies with the requirements of being an MD. As I see it, Gretchen faithfully fulfills the definition of the Manipulated Dead, and is noted as one in an in-movie text (that also has the added out-of-movie authenticity and authority of having been written by the author/director himself). Therefore, she is what the book and the author and the director say she is. Complimentarily, noting that we don't see the MD incarnation of Gretchen is not proof that she isn't MD. It simply means we don't get to see that part of the story ... just as, while we don't get to see the characters transported to/from the TU, we still understand that there is a TU and that a number of people come to travel there and back again. edit: fixed a hypertag
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Post by Madridarko on Nov 21, 2004 17:38:51 GMT -5
Maybe in order to be considered a Manipulated dead, you have to be killed by the Living Reciever. Like Frank who was killed by Donnie. But I do think that Gretchen is sorta kinda a manipulated dead, maybe there can only be one powerful Manipulated dead, or maybe another manipulated dead power is like power over feelings or love and deppresion and all of that, in that case Gretchen would fit under the discription
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Post by Madridarko on Nov 21, 2004 17:58:51 GMT -5
I think that IIwhatever point was that even though Gretchen did die, making her a Manipulated Dead, she does not actively use or is seen using her powers. I think I just discovered something, there are actually 2 Franks, the Manipulated Dead Frank (aka bunny rabbit frank) and the Manipulated Living Frank (the one that donnie kills and Donnnie's sister is going out with) Now Gretchen we only see the Manipulated Living one but never a special as Providence puts it "incarnation" where she has special powers or is mutilated or whatever like Frank BR. This does not neccesarily mean that that type of Gretchen does not exist, but it does raise questions. I wonder if the Manipulated Dead can appear after their death, because Frank BR never reappered after Frank's death. Maybe the voice donnie hears "in his head" when he is looking to dead Gretchen is not really inside his head but rather Manipulated Dead Gretchen. Maybe manipulated dead Gretchen somehow helped around maybe like during the "spears" because I always wondered how did that hand "spear" out of donnie achieved that shape.
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Post by ProvidencePortal on Nov 22, 2004 10:36:17 GMT -5
I wonder if the Manipulated Dead can appear after their death, because Frank BR never reappered after Frank's death. An interesting question, Madri. We're really only able to speculate (since the powers, role and motivation of the MD are only hinted at, not specified), but it is intriguing to note that we don't see Frank after his original incarnation's death in the TU timeline.
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Post by Fyre on Dec 1, 2004 18:05:39 GMT -5
My thoughts:
Frank died in a bunny suit; it disguises him, and he can travel back in time and converse with Donnie as a relatively anonymous figure. Only once does he remove his mask as MD Frank, I believe--in the theatre, correct? Then Donnie sees his eye. To some it might seem as though he takes it in a stride, but I believe he is quite shocked by it--and the moment is so brief and surprising that he doesn't recognize "Living Frank," Elizabeth's "friend."
So why is MD Frank chosen for the role of the primary "messender," and not MD Gretchen (who, I believe, does exist)?
Well, I would assume it's because the Manipulator (God, Fate, Gargamel, whoever) decided who would have the most impact, and the most *positive* impact, on Donnie. If MD Gretchen showed up--her head caved in--no disguise--Donnie would have freaked out. Would he have listened to her? Would he have become as attatched to ML Gretchen or excercised some self-preservation and kept her at arm's length? Expecting her death, would he have had the same reaction to it?
This is why, I believe, we don't see MD Gretchen throughout the film.
Any takers?
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Post by Madridarko on Dec 1, 2004 19:33:20 GMT -5
I agree with your point Fyre, for if donnie had seen a mutilated gretchen 1) he would have known that she was going to die and that might have drastically changed his descisions 2) It would have scared the hell out of him more than FranksBR in a disguise. I also believe that that time when Frank reveals himself to donnie and says something like "have you ever seen a time portal" and 'burn it to the ground" is the last time donnie physically sees FrankBR.
I don't actually think that donnie did not recognize frank but there were so many things happening at that time and he had a rough idean of what he was up against because he had read POTT already. I think has was more of kinda just shocked that he did not know how to react.
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Post by Madridarko on Dec 1, 2004 21:10:47 GMT -5
Uhh, I found out new info/proof about Gretchen being a Manipulated Dead. In the very last page of POTT it says in notes made by I belive Roberta Sparrow herself
the say
"Living Receiver Donald [or maybe Donnie] Darko (died October 2, 1988) Manipulated Dead Frank (Anderson) Gretchen Ross (not her real name) Manipulated Living (everyone else in the film - list includes Donnie's family, friends, enemies, Roberta Sparrow, etc. // note after Jim Cunningham's name reads, I think, "died October 1988")" Which means Roberta knew all their names somehow beforehand at the moment of writting this, even knew when the Tangent Universe would start or maybe when Donnie's death was. But maybe it wasn't Sparrow, but who else could it be that wrotte this. It couldn't have been donnie either because he would then know when was his death day and how could have he known that Gretchen was to die?
I think it was just Roberta writting on her "insight" that was revealed to her. She knew incredibly enough at the moment of writting this who would read it and who would be what and all. What else could explain it.
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Post by gretchen on Dec 1, 2004 22:01:27 GMT -5
frye i do believe this is one of the best explanations we have had to explain why we don't see gretchen using her MD power.
and madrid.
we KNOW. her status as MD came up from that page, and has been heavily discussed in this thread alone.
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Post by Madridarko on Dec 1, 2004 22:22:37 GMT -5
Yes, but I am trieng to remind that the question is not if she is or not an MD but why she is one and if she makes her prescence in it or what. I also meant to put a bit more emphasis on the ending part in which it is weired that she (Sparrow) wrotte it that way and that she knew all the names and dates before hand (If it was her who wrotte it) If she did writte it, it means she just didn't writte this book randomly thinking and hoping someday some LR will get it, but more specific towards donnie.
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Post by FinalWhiteStar on Dec 9, 2004 13:33:47 GMT -5
In regards to a previous poster, just because Gretchen was killed does not make her a candidate for the manipulated dead. I think the detail of after Jim Cunninghams name it says "Died 1988" or whatever shows that if you die you don't become manipulated dead, as Cunningham is in the living section.
Just a thought. ;D
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Post by darkguyb on Dec 9, 2004 13:40:15 GMT -5
cunningham died in the normal universe. gretchen was killed in the tangent and she was listed as MD in the POTT
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