My shaky theory on TPOTT

[hitman]

Hey everyone. Been reading around for a few days now and have to say I really enjoyed hearing everyone's theories on the film. So thanks to everyone for that.

Anyway I figured that I should take the time to contribute something to the site and give one of my own theories.

I havent seen the directors cut or even the DVD comentary, so my preferred theory does diverge, to a large extent from what seems to be the generally accepted theory so I thought you might lake to hear it. Anyway here it goes.

I agree with the general theory that a TU is created and that God has entrusted Donnie to save the PU by returning the 'artifact' and resolving the TU.

Here's where it gets whacky.

Firstly i think there is no manipulated dead or living and so consequently there is no book called TPOTT. Ok its pretty ridiculous arguing this based on what I gather from the directors cut but humour me!

The MD:
I think Donnie is schizophrenic and also does genuinely have the ability to see into the future, albeit only in his subconscious. Thus he creates Frank (the Bunny Rabbit Frank that is) in order to give his conscious self the courage to complete his mission.

So for the period of the TU Frank acts as a Tyler Durden -esque character to force a weak willed Donnie to complete his tasks along the same lines as the 'Ensurance Trap' which is referred to in TPOTT.

This gives a different meaning to the end when Bunny Frank says "Im going home" >paraphrased<. This is not a satisfied ghost of Frank because that he didnt die. Instead its Donnie's alterego dying as it has served its purpose.

This theory on the MD, I think, also explains the absence of Gretchen's MD persona.

The ML:
Ok so firstly the two charcters I see as being the best arguments for the existence of the Manipulated Living are Pomperoy&Monitoff. These two obviously exist but I think that the three conversations Donnie has with them are all merely products of Donnie's psychosis.

My main reason for this is that during all three conversations the room is empty of other students. This I believe would explain the shot showing Charita's bemused eavesdropping, i.e. because she is listening to Donnie talk to himself about timetravel.

Ok so this is where I hit a problem...if Donnie never talks to Monitoff, then how does Donnie get the copy of TPOTT?? Well he didn't because there is no such book. Ok its a stretch but why not? Donnie never actually shows the book to anyone and you might have noticed when 'Monitoff' gives Donnie the book he stress, "dont tell anyone I gave this to you".

So why did Donnie create the book? I believe it is an effort to explain his ability to see into the future to his conscious self. This can be seen in the scene where he shows the book to Gretchen. I know, I know...I said he didn't show it to anyone, but I think this conversaton with Gretchen is also an illusion, because as above its in a deserted place with noone to witness it. The same goes for the session with Dr. Thurman where he shows it to her.

So anyway Donnie says "Ive seen stuff,alot of really messed up stuff and there are chapters in that book that describe what ive been seeing. It cant just be a coincidence". Right you are Donnie, no coincidence, the book is a way of trying to explain his visions of seeing the future.


I have other theories on the role Roberta Sparrow but Im a slow typer and thought it would be a bit arrogant if my first post turned out to be a thesis.

So anyway if you read this, thanks and what do you think?

[Anger prisoner]

I think a lot of things were put into the movie to make you lean toward the Shizo dillusion side of things for the first couple of watches. However I feel that was mostly a tool put in to make it harder to figure out.

I might be remembering wrong also but he showed the book to his father and his DR. at least in the DC. But anyway. As For Pomeroy and Monitoff I have my own issues with them. But I think you might be reading to much into the "empty room" scenario after all Donnie wouldn't have had those conversations in public nor would Monitoff for that matter.

It seems strange that you agree with Donnie being the Living Receiver chosen to cancel the tangent univierse but not that everyone is the malipulated living and dead. So are you saying that everything that Donnie was doing was a hallucination? I have a hard time swallowing that being that everything is laid out for you in the POTT. If no one was manipulated and the POTT did not exist then why did everyone wake up with residual memories in the primary universe (just like the POTT said they would)?

I can see how you could think that way but you should watch the Directors cut. It streamlines your way of thinking for this movie.

Welcome to the Board!!!

[hitman]

You're right 'bout there being obvious reasons for the Monitoff conversations to be held in private but what's with the Pomperoy scene? I mean why would they both be sitting alone in a classroom together...it wasn't before a class because they both get up and leave after their conversation. They don't talk about anything private or contraversal. In the scene they only say two things.
The first, I think is just Donnie coming to terms with his role as a hero.
"what do I tell the other kids...",
"tell them everything is going to be just fine"
this is a phrase he repeats to Charita and Frank's friend at the end.
And the second is the more obvious clue of Cellar Door and is more of his self contructed 'ensurance trap' I mentioned in the first post.
Obviously I could be wrong, but it just struck me right away that the whole scene had to be an illusion.

I don't really think Donnie hallucinated everything...just the conversations, the book and the 'MD' Frank. Basically I think there was a TU and everyone experienced it (hence the residual memory montage) I just don't buy the idea that everyone else had a role to play in Donnie's mission.

I know this seems that Im kinda picking and choosing from TPOTT but the book doesn't exactly have a monopoly on the idea of temporal universes and the need to resolve them by returning the foreign object to the PU. I guess I just have a hard time buying all the additional substance added to the POTT that isn't in the original cut (ie the MD and ML). I guess Im just stubborn and wanna stick to the theory I formed from the original.

[Bigboy]

But the ideas of the PoTT do drive the original cut.
The pages and thier ideas were created by Richard Kelly as part of the mythos, and are central to the film.
Further, the pages are included on the official website (created in conjuction wuth the original theatrical release), and as a special feature on the theatrical cut DVD (not the prism version).

Granted, the PoTT wasn't shown to you in detail in the original release, but that doesn't mean that they weren't a part of it - you just had to go and find them yourself.

[hitman]

I don't know....do you really think that the additional ideas of TPOTT (ie the manipulated living/dead) necessarily drive the original cut.

Granted they clearly fit into it but i guess what I tried to do above is offer a theory which doesn't rely on the sublimentary aspects of TPOTT added by the directors cut and the website.

I guess when I first read TPOTT on the net it seemed to me that it was a sort of "Deus Ex Machina" in itself for the director to explain his own interpretation of the film.

[Bigboy]

But, given that Richard Kelly wrote the film too, his 'interpretation' must be what was indended in the script.

So whether or not the PoTT was written in parallel with the script, or as an afterthought is largely irrelevant - I for one can't interpret the PoTT, or the information gleaned from the website, as anything but canon.

[hitman]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not sitting are debating that my preferred theory is more valid than that of the writer/director's...(or anyone else's for that matter)

On the otherhand, seeing as the original cut was so open ended and open to interpretation, I think you can see the DC, along with the extended TPOTT and the website as one of two things.
Either
1)a valid and effective appendix to the original film
-or-
2)a seperate entity altogether, a way in which Kelly can present a film which is relatively more streamlined, more audience friendly and has alot less loose ends than the original cut...somewhat of a sequel (for want of a better word).

I obviously preferr the latter view, and so think one can interpret the PoTT, or the information gleaned from the website, as somthing other than canon in terms of the original cut.

Again I'm not so much pitching my theory against Kelly's, as I am merely offering a different way of interpreting the film. The opportunity to do which was, for me, the most endearing part of the original cut, and somthing which I think the DC has probably lost to a great degree.

[ProvidencePortal]

Hitman, I think yours is a strong read in the "Donnie as schizophrenic" camp -- nicely done. And, while I tend to believe it was RK's intent to have us walk away believing Donnie wasn't crazy (that is, that the hints that he was were a red herring meant to give the "revelation" more umphf -- as suggested by Anger Prisoner above), there is room to make your interpretation fit and recognize the integral role the PoTT plays.

I think you nailed it: Donnie is imbued with, at the very least, a heightened level of perception ... possibly because of, or maybe as an aside to, being crazy. His visions of Frank and the existence of the PoTT are fabrications meant to lend him strenght in performing a heroic task. It may not ultimately jive with how I see the movie, but I will say that this interpretation provides the most all-around satisfying answer to questions about the book: it reads like the product of a schizoid break because that's what it is!

Now that I've agreed, I'll say two more things. First: several other plot points directly or strongly oppose this interpretation, including the "you were never crazy" bit from Donnie's counselor and the fact that ALL references to the LR cycle -- TU, artifact, super powers, etc. -- are derived from the PoTT and don't exist in the movie. That and, the total body of evidence (commentaries, interviews, both cuts, deleted scenes) very strongly suggest the PoTT is a real book with mysterious origins.

Second thing: what most of us (BigBoy, me, several others) consider the canononical read -- that Donnie is chosen to enter and execute the LR cycle, that the book is real, etc. -- also suffers when held up to certain moments in the movie. Each of us has his or her own personal stumbling blocks that just don't allow the whole thing to add up.

So, I commend you for your reading. I enjoyed it and think it's as solid as any other interpretation. Taken as your experience, its works. Good job, and welcome.

[viashino]

theres also the whole scene where donnie shows the POTT to gretchen on the hill when they are alone >.>