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Post by Liansky on Jan 27, 2005 13:24:48 GMT -5
Actually, the last witch trails was held back in the thirdies... iiinnnn, America or England... can't remember which. You should also know that they are in essence, and organisiation that was formed as a means of consolidating the power of the church, and any ideolgy that might threaten that power will be condemned, albeit in a manner that is secretive. Look at the child abuse scandals. Silence was maintained because this would lead the average church goer to question the church, and even the apparent infallibility of the pope. The question is simple. What God would allow this to happen to children. The vey existance of God will be questioned, thus we have a situation where the church looses it's grip over the minds of mortal men.
Secondly, i don't particulaly believe in God, but i i often use the phrase, 'i pray'. It's a figure of speech. That is not what i focused on. She writes, 'by the grace of God'. That is not a figure of speech. That is a show of faith. That is an acknowldgement of the devine. That is the words of someone who still follows doctrine and it shows very little sign of having seperated from the church. Rather it shows someone who chosen to 'follow' her calling in a different way.
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Post by brindacier on Jan 27, 2005 13:54:39 GMT -5
There is no exact evidence wether or not she kept her faith in the church even after seperating from it. She could have still remained strong to her faith or maybe not. We are not sure of the evidence for or against that. She says "Every living creature dies alone." which is heretical because God is always with you. I think her death on Christmas Day ( December 25, 1988) is also a hint.
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Post by ProvidencePortal on Jan 27, 2005 14:16:45 GMT -5
Her "alone" quote could be -- and to me, is most sensibly seen as -- the behavior of the Manipulated Living ... not necessarily reflective of Sparrow's spiritual beliefs.
I see nothing in the intro to the Philosophy of Time Travel that suggests Sparrow was anything but a devoutly spiritual woman who encountered something that fundamentally influenced her understanding of the divine. In fact, like many religious visionaries, it seems likely Sparrow saw her experience with the LR process -- whatever that experience was, she somehow discovered the details of it -- as expanding her understanding of God and God's plan ... not wrecking her understanding, or diminishing her belief. After all, according to the movie and to Kelly himself, the LR process is a divine process, guided by God and bracketed by the idea that providence -- the path of destiny, created by the sacred -- truly exists and governs our actions.
I see Sparrow the author as still very much a woman faith. It's possible that Sparrow the Manipulated Living has lost her faith -- maybe some of her mind, too -- but there are years and years between the two aspects of the woman.
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Post by Liansky on Jan 27, 2005 14:55:43 GMT -5
My initial argument was, TPOTT should not taken very seriosuly because it is merely a marketing gimmick not well thought out. I don't believe it to have much relevance and if people concentrate too much on this document, you lose focus.
I started out by saying that Roberta lost her faith, then i said this contradicts with what the POTT implies. You say that she still maintains her faith. I disgree. You say that she ecnoutered something that fundamentally influenced her belief, and i agree.
Her departure from the church was sudden. Why?? She chose to isolate herself. Why? She eventually went mad. Why? All these suggests an expirience so profound that it influenced her belief to such an extent, that the whole of the foundation that is her religious belief was turned upside down. Every aspect came into question, and every aspect turned out to be false. That holds in itself a profound impact on the mind of that which has psychology constrcuted a foundation entirly made up of that belief. From a psychological persepective, that is like removing the ground on which you stand, revealing a void in which you fall and fall and fall. It's hectic.
um.. anyways, i kinda lost track cause i was talking to a neighbour who wanted a copy of Shark Tale.... But, the point that i'm trying to make is that the movie and the POTT contradicts each other, thus suggesting that the POTT is invalid and should not be taken seriously.
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Post by ProvidencePortal on Jan 27, 2005 15:25:14 GMT -5
But, the point that i'm trying to make is that the movie and the POTT contradicts each other, thus suggesting that the POTT is invalid and should not be taken seriously. Well, that brings you and the rest of us to interesting ground indeed -- for the fundamental understanding of the movie most commonly shared by Darko-philes (that is, that there's a tangent universe, that its existence threatens the primary universe's, and that Donnie must return an artifact through a portal to the PU to save it) demands that the PoTT be considered a core reference document. Those elements don't exist elsewhere, and can't really be divined from the movie alone (which of course is why most times, viewers interpret it as a movie about time travel). And while interesting, drawing conclusions about what happened in the decades between author-Sparrow and ML-Sparrow feels to me like guesswork. What we know is what she wrote in her book (presumambly as a significantly younger woman) and how she behaved when Donnie met her in 1988 ... but not much about the in-between. I agree with you that Sparrow's belief system seems to have gotten a pretty good shake-up, but again, I don't see evidence that makes me believe the rug was pulled out from under her and "everything she believed turned out to be false." Instead, her deferential and respectful tone when referring to God in the book -- a book she must've written after her understanding of God changed with the exposure to the LR process -- reads to me like she was, if confused, still very much spiritual. This is why I suggested above that, to her, her understanding was expanded, not destroyed. She seems to be searching for an answer that includes God, not one that's separate from God ... kind of like many of us take loose ends in the movie and try to see if we can find answers within the movie, rather than looking at them as outside the text. I'm not saying anyone's wrong or anyone's right. After all, what's cannonical to the film mythos and what's not is a debate that has been going for years and won't end here. I'm also not disagreeing that there aren't inconsistencies in the various texts (movie, script, Web site, Sparrow's book) -- there are. But dismissing the PoTT as a part of the movie -- as a "marketing gimmick -- pretty significantly changes the entire meaning of the movie ... or so it seems to me. I'm curious: without the book, how would you see the events of the movie?
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Post by Liansky on Jan 27, 2005 15:57:28 GMT -5
Sticking to that point of searching for God, let's continue on my theory that she has lost her faith. She walks up and down to the post box, searching for something.
Answering your last question, what seems to have been lost is the fact that the movie is not entirly about time travel. It is about religion, moral, ethics, politics, and society at large. It is commentary with science being used to animate that commentary, but it is not at it's core, a sci-fi movie. If this was the case, then i would not be so obsessed with the movie. I-Robot was enough. Why did Roberta Sparrow go mad? My theory is that she went mad because the final strands that held together pieces of her foundations finally caved in. Madness is often a defense mechanism. An attempt to seperate oneself from a reality that one cannot bear. It is the next best thing to suicide(in fact, it can be said that Roberta Sparrow is a far better candidate for chronic schizophrenia). Why does Roberta look in the post box? She is looking for a sign. Some may even say she is looking for God himself. Remember that this is commentary and Roberta is the most fundamental of characters in trying to emphazise DD's religious commentary. Roberta Sparrow is primarily, an image of lost faith, wether that be faith in a backstabbing lover or faith in God. In this case, one might even say that Donnie might be the surest sign that God actually exists.... now, um..... i am thinking up something new here... never thought of it that way.... anyways....
You get what i'm saying.. hopefully...
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Post by Madridarko on Jan 27, 2005 21:56:18 GMT -5
Liansky, about your church/child abuse problem. I deeply disagree with such situation and I also consider incorrect for people to judge the whole of the church by the actions of those few corrupt (maybe they are not that few but) I consider them a disgrace and insult to the catholic/christian/american/humanitarian community. The hypocresy they have lived in all their lives evokes my deepest emotions of ange. I would also hate for people to stereotype the catholic church according to those actions and I do not beilive that the church had nothing to hide, I doubt they ever hid anything at all. I understand over all there would be inumerable amount of losses in followers but if they actually tried to hide the information, when the truth surfaces they would suffer even larger numbers of adherents seperating from the church.
It is mentioned that "Every living creature dies alone" is heretical, but it is not mentioned in the book as it was your focal point in proof of heresy.
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Post by Liansky on Jan 29, 2005 11:20:39 GMT -5
Look, i'm not into talking about religion with religious people, so we'll end it here.
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Post by Madridarko on Jan 29, 2005 11:36:50 GMT -5
I am sorry, I did not mean to say Liansky, I meant to say Brindacier. It is for him. Sorry for this confusion.
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h4m
Junior Member
Posts: 82
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Post by h4m on Jan 30, 2005 22:16:07 GMT -5
if you arent prepared to speak about religion with religous people how do you plan to expand any knowledge of it?
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Post by Madridarko on Jan 30, 2005 23:13:15 GMT -5
h4m, I agree with you, but I also agree that this is the incorrect place to do this in this site.
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Post by drb417 on Feb 5, 2005 21:24:47 GMT -5
If we are to believe that Roberta was once a LR, could Donnie at some future time be apart of another TU when it occurs. Roberta could also reappear.
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Post by Madridarko on Feb 5, 2005 22:19:49 GMT -5
If we are to believe that Roberta was once a LR, could Donnie at some future time be apart of another TU when it occurs. Roberta could also reappear. But there is also a difference between Roberta and Donnie. Donnie chose to die, and Roberta chose to live, so Roberta really never "came back" from the dead, she was alive already...(if you consider how she spent the rest of her life being actually alive)
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